MOTUnation.com

This definitely deserves a new thread, although mhschmieder has announced it in an existing thread. Arne Wallander has outdone himself. He has just repackaged the WIVI instruments and is selling them in two basic collections:

Brass and Woodwinds.

First of all, the quality level of Wallander's library is simply incredible. These sound and feel like real instruments whether you're playing them or listening to them. WIVI has been through many tweaks and upgrades, so that the original sounds are vastly improved. I even thought that most of the original sounds were beyond compare, but Arne has even made them better.

Second of all, we're talking about a LOT of instruments here. Let me list the collections for you:

BRASS ($499):
•French Horns 1-4
No mute, Stopped, Straight mute.
• Vienna Horns 1-4
• Wagner Tubas 1-4

• Piccolo Trumpets 1-3
No mute, Straight mute.
• D-Trumpets 1-3
No mute, Straight mute.
• C-Trumpets 1-3
No mute, Straight mute.
• Bb-Trumpets 1-3
No mute, Straight mute, Cup mute, Bucket mute, Solotone mute, Harmon mute (no stem, inserted & extended), Plunger mute.
• Bass Trumpets 1-3
No mute, Straight mute.
• Contrabass Trumpets 1-3
No mute, Straight mute.

• Alto Trombones 1-3
No mute, Straight mute, Cup mute, Bucket mute.
• Tenor Trombones 1-3
No mute, Straight mute, Cup mute, Bucket mute, Harmon mute (no stem, inserted & extended), Plunger mute.
• Bass Trombones 1-3
No mute, Straight mute, Cup mute, Bucket mute, Harmon mute (no stem), Plunger mute.

• Cimbassos 1-3
• F-Tubas 1-2
No mute, Straight mute.
• Contrabass Tubas 1-2
No mute, Straight mute.

• Soprano Cornets 1-3
No mute, Straight mute.
• Cornets 1-3
No mute, Straight mute.
• Flugelhorns 1-3
• Alto Horns 1-3
No mute, Straight mute.
• Baritone Horns 1-3
No mute, Straight mute.
• Euphoniums 1-3
No mute, Straight mute.


WOODWINDS ($399):
• Piccolo Flutes 1-3
• Concert Flutes 1-3
• Alto Flutes 1-3
• Bass Flutes 1-3

• Modern Oboes 1-3
• Baroque Oboes 1-3
• Oboe d’Amore 1-3
• English Horns 1-3

• Eb-Clarinets 1-3
• Bb-Clarinets 1-3
• A-Clarinets 1-3
• Basset Horns 1-3
• Bass Clarinets 1-3
• Contrabass Clarinets 1-3

• Modern Bassoons 1-3
• Classical Bassoons 1-3
• Baroque Bassoons 1-3
• Contrabassoons 1-3

• Sopranino Saxophones 1-3
• Soprano Saxophones 1-3
• Alto Saxophones 1-3
• Tenor Saxophones 1-3
• Baritone Saxophones 1-3
• Bass Saxophones 1-3
• C Soprano Saxophones 1-3
• Mezzo-soprano Saxophones 1-3
• C Melody Saxophones 1-3

• Garklein Recorders 1-3
• Sopranino Recorders 1-3
• Soprano Recorders 1-3
• Alto Recorders 1-3
• Tenor Recorders 1-3
• Bass Recorders 1-3
• Great Bass Recorders 1-3
• Contrabass Recorders 1-3

When Arne gives you 3 of any instrument, say, 3 flutes or 3 trombones or 3 bassoons, they are not the same instrument. He gives you variations in the sounds, just as if you bought three different brands of an instrument. Thus, the lists above are really three times that large. Four times in cases of the horns. Further, you can use as many instances of any of those instruments as you wish. There's no limiting you to 1 of each or something.

Third, Arne has brought the price down to a fraction of its original. Prior to this repackaging, the woodwinds were divided up into at least 3 bundles, the saxes in 2 bundles, and the brass in at least 2 bundles. Maybe more. I don't remember exactly. In each bundle you got an assortment of each instrument (4 horns, 3 trumpets, etc.) along with other variations like different mutes, which respond in real time to controllers. Each bundle of instruments cost anywhere from $399 to $599. So, let's say an average of $500 for 7 bundles... Well, I don't know what the original costs were, but that would be $3500. Plus, there were some instruments that had not been released in ANY bundles. Now, he's reduced his entire collection to Two Bundles! The two complete bundles now sell for $500 (brass) and $400 (woodwinds). I paid more than that for my original two collections, which are but a fraction of the total number of instruments now included in these two sets. The new prices go down proportionately to how many collections you already own, btw.

They come with a Standard Edition of the interface software, which can handle most of the tweaks that anyone would want. There is also a "Pro Edition" of the interface, and it has many more tweaks and features for people who are very particular about placing early reflections and late reverb in different planes, or who want very detailed EQ tweaks occurring at specific places in an instruments range, and so forth. Most people would be happy with the Standard Edition, but I have the Pro Edition, and it really rocks. It sells for an additional $499.

If you buy the whole deal, it's $1400. Or accept just the standard edition of the interface, and it's $1000. Or get one package at a time, and upgrade to the other one later. You could instantly add all the woodwinds and saxes for $400. That's an amazing deal. There's nothing like it in the world right now, IMHO.

Like all wind/brass libraries, it can be made to sound even more realistic with a breath controller -- either the kind that you use in conjunction with a keyboard (the headset that you blow into while playing the keyboard), or a dedicated MIDI Wind instrument. BUT... Arne himself is a keyboardist, and he designed WIVI to interface well with a keyboard. You can use as little or as much envelope as you want. Generally, the more breath control you use, the less envelope you need or want.

I can already tell you that you will never hear the real potential in the demos of these instruments. But get the actual instruments, and you'll be blown away. No other library anywhere can compare to any or all of these instruments. Why am I pushing these so hard? Because I think they elevate your mixes into something that sounds like you hired a bunch of orchestral or jazz players. That makes DP look good, too. And because you can then let go of the tyranny of sample libraries. You can easily host 100 WIVI instruments simultaneously on a dual-core Intel. Very small footprints. You still need Vienna for strings, but Arne is working on those, too. We'll see them someday. The way I see it, a complete set of VI's from today's existing products would include:

Woodwinds, Saxes and Brass: Wallander's WIVI (two collections total)
Strings: Vienna Special Edition
Piano: your choice - Ivory Italian Grand, Garritan Steinway, Pianoteq
Percussion: BFD, Battery, hey - even Model 12 doesn't suck
World: RA or MOTU Ethno
Jazz: Garritan Jazz and Big Band

There are other odd collections that are desirable, still in sample format, but the above can put the spank on any arrangement. I think that modeling is the way of the future. All the big gains of the past few years have been in modeled instruments, while samples have reached a plateau of complexity and enormity. Let's face it: sample libraries are whales, and it's hard to get a whale to turn flips in a bathtub. Modeled instruments are like seals and otters: much more agile than whales, and very endearing and expressive.

Ok, that's my whale of a post for the night. I sure hope that some of you end up as happy as I've been with WIVI.

Shooshie

Two big thumbs up from me! These are my go to brass and wind libraries! Except for the saxophone ( I own a real one) Although also own and play a real oboe, clarinet, flute, and bassoon but still go to Wallander. (Ever try to record a bassoon)??? They also really sit well in my orchestral mock-ups!


Peace

Rik

As you know, I'm also a saxophonist (with a number of other woodwinds laying around here, including oboe, clarinet, flute, piccolo, recorders, and more) but I like being able to work in MIDI, so I actually use Wallander's saxes. He's made them much better than the original releases, and I can now even match my own sax sounds pretty closely.

I find it interesting that a lot of people are fooled into chasing a particular timbre first, often leading to their buying an inferior product simply because "out of the box" it already has that timbre. Timbre is the last consideration for me. Playability and flexibility, along with great powers for customization are my first concerns. Timbre is so easy to change later on via EQ, sound processing, or the myriad controls within an amazing instrument like WIVI.

With instant online help available for every control (Command-Click the control), there is no reason to be intimidated by all this customization. Once you find settings you like, you can save an instrument with them and load it into any ensemble, so the learning curve plateaus very fast, leading to a set of instruments you can reuse forever.

As I use the WIVI Pro Interface, I'm always smitten with the incredible control of details that Arne has put at our fingertips. For example, he realizes that performing on any instrument is only half the sound. The other half is the performance space, and he gives us tremendous control over reflections and reverb. These settings can be used even inside Altiverb or other reverb environments. Even dry space has certain reflections, so controlling those is essential to controlling the sound of the instrument.

Plus, WIVI's instruments live together on a sound stage. If you want to change their relationships, you drag them around on that stage, or drag the listener. This causes the instruments to blend very well together, and eliminates the need for panning within DP. Bypassing DP's pan is a very good thing.

Anyway, I'm amazed. I now have 170 woodwind and brass instruments, spanning the entire orchestra and most band instruments. Even recorders. This is wonderful.

Shooshie

Shooshie

I finally check out the WIVI, very cool. I am a little confused with the pro edition and what it does. Downloaded the demo and had a play and gather it is the SE. The one thing missing is any slurring. A gather that is sorted by the 'transitions' feature in the Pro Edition? Best example is horn, the slight portamento a horn does when it slurs, esp on larger intervals. I did not hear any of that with the demo. Is that possible with the full SE version or the Pro Edition?

Obmit

I've had the demo and Wallander is on the list of future purchases. I really like the oboe d'amour, I saw a period music performance which had it and thought it was a beautiful instrument.

They keep changing their method of selling, though. I think I can live with this one, and if there was ever a sale that would help me as well. I didn't even know about the Pro and normal versions of the WIVI- is this something that one could upgrade to at some point?

obmit wrote:Shooshie

I finally check out the WIVI, very cool. I am a little confused with the pro edition and what it does. Downloaded the demo and had a play and gather it is the SE. The one thing missing is any slurring. A gather that is sorted by the 'transitions' feature in the Pro Edition? Best example is horn, the slight portamento a horn does when it slurs, esp on larger intervals. I did not hear any of that with the demo. Is that possible with the full SE version or the Pro Edition?

Obmit

It's all there. You can make it do pretty much anything that a real horn can do except for releasing spit from the spit valves. A portamento is not something something you'd want on most intervals; when you hear it, it's because the player wanted it, not because the horn just does that. So, you'd want this to be on a controller. I would guess that you'd set the portamento for control by a pedal or mod wheel, then when you got to the intervals where you wanted it, you'd increase the amount. Without actually trying it, that's what I'd guess.

When I first tried out the horn, I pulled out a piece by Paul Hindemith which was originally for an Eb alt-horn. I just read the piece while recording it, and of course would do a lot differently now, such as play it about 30% more quietly. This was before I learned any of the controls, so in other words, this is pretty much "right out of the box." Here's what came out:

Hindemith: Waldhorn Sonata; IV

Shoosh

Larry Mal wrote:I've had the demo and Wallander is on the list of future purchases. I really like the oboe d'amour, I saw a period music performance which had it and thought it was a beautiful instrument.

They keep changing their method of selling, though. I think I can live with this one, and if there was ever a sale that would help me as well. I didn't even know about the Pro and normal versions of the WIVI- is this something that one could upgrade to at some point?

The Pro version was always the "normal" version. The Standard Edition was added to provide some savings to people who wanted the breadth of the library without so much of the depth of control. (and for less price) If you own any of the libraries already, you already own the Pro Edition, and buying these cheaper libraries will give you access to their full potential. Otherwise, the Standard Edition has fewer controls than the Pro Edition, and is the interface included with this new pricing structure. To upgrade to the full Pro Edition interface would take another $500.

You gotta give the guy credit for trying. He's sitting on the best instruments in the entire industry. The industry is VERY slow on the uptake, and still people compare WIVI to other libraries based on the timbre of a demo, not realizing that WIVI can do any timbre, essentially. Nor do most people realize the full depth of control that is possible with WIVI. Arne didn't leave anything out. It's amazing. You can control by envelope if you're not a "player," or you can play it literally in real time like a real instrument, with nearly all the capabilities of a real instrument. Anyway, all that was not evident in his first demo versions, which locked out most of the controls. Now, he tells me that he's added back most of those controls for demos, and that it's now limited on a time basis. (one hour at a time until paid for) But the bottom line is that it's been a tough sell with so many biases out there favoring instruments with a fraction of the capabilities of WIVI. So, Arne is trying out different ways of getting people to try them. Once you try them and learn the controls, there's no going back. Nothing else ever feels right again. Vienna is the best among the sampled instruments. (as opposed to modeled, like WIVI) I love Vienna's instruments and interface. But Even with $20,000 worth of Vienna, I wouldn't be able to do most of what I can do with WIVI, and in real time to boot.

One exception is Vienna's flute. It is absolutely the best thing they've created, and may be the best flute VI anywhere. WIVI's flute gives it a close run, and in most situations you'd probably favor my performance on WIVI's flute, but in certain situations, such as in Debussy's Prelude: L'apres MIDI d'un faun or in that giant sweep in Ravel's Daphnes and Chloe Suite #2, I think Vienna's flute might win out. Still, WIVI's flute has been improved again and again, and I have not attempted a flute shoot-out between Vienna and WIVI in a couple of years. Were I to do it today, it might be a different story.


Shoosh

Thanks Shooshie for all the info.

Cool demo, and you are right, should be quieter, poor player would have lip chunks on his hand after playing that!

The sound I am talking about is the smear you get when you slur a leap. Happens on all brass, but horns make it more pronounced. It is not a portamento in the strict sense. It is like what a singer does when they leap up. High trumpet also does it. I hear a bit of it in the Tpt in the demo on a few high notes but wondering how to control it. As you say, it is not something done all the time, but it is very important. VSL does it well, but it is over used by many people. I am guessing it is something to do with transitions and so I am wondering if maybe yu only get it with the pro version.

I think life would be easier if there were more info on the website. I found a few things online, but these things seem to be a little secret. He needs to do something about that.

The version on the demo is the SE? or Pro?

Obmit

As I said before, all that you ask is possible on the pro version. Arne provided minute details in the controls, all of which can be altered via continuous controllers or MIDI switches/pedals.

The instructions are available by command-clicking any item in the interface. (I think... not sure of that offhand; it may be a different control) Anyway, onboard help is always a click away. I have to experiment to find the right setup for each instrument. It's a process, but the method is always there if I look for it.

What you're asking for sounds like a combination of about 2 or 3 different controls. Transition is probably one of them. The others might come under different names; I'd have to research it. Not as hard as it sounds, but I am unable to do it for you at this time.

Shooshie

Shooshie,

I downloaded the demo, ran the installer, but the plug-in doesn't show up in DP. Is there a player that I'm missing? Using DP 6 and SL on a MacBook Pro.

Thanks.

It doesn't show up in the Instruments section? Go to /Library/Audio/Plug-ins/Components/ and look for WIVI.Component. If it is there, you should find the VI in the Add Instruments menu. If it's not there, then you might first try running the installer again and see if you accidentally ran a custom install. If not, then one of us will have to ask Arne Wallander what's up with his demo installers.

Shooshie

This repackaging actually is not what I exactly want. I want woodwinds only and the old bundle structure allowed just that. Now I have to pay $100 extra for something I don't need.

I'm still working on the VSL version of the Strauss Serenade demo (don't have much time) to compare it to the Wallander's one.

They are packaged as woodwinds or brass. You buy either, or both. You get a discount for those bundles you already own.

Shoosh

michkhol wrote:I'm still working on the VSL version of the Strauss Serenade demo (don't have much time) to compare it to the Wallander's one.

Your comparison will tell you nothing unless you do both. Did you do the Wallander version? Assuming you did, then it will be educational, but you would already know even at this point. The comparison of CREATING them is the real test. You can make either one sound pretty good, but at what expense of time? Wallander's instruments sound passable even when applied to my worst sequencing. But when I actually record with them... I really don't think any other library in existence can stand up to that test. They lay down like the real thing... first time. Little or no editing is necessary.

Shoosh

Shooshie wrote:It doesn't show up in the Instruments section? Go to /Library/Audio/Plug-ins/Components/ and look for WIVI.Component. If it is there, you should find the VI in the Add Instruments menu. If it's not there, then you might first try running the installer again and see if you accidentally ran a custom install. If not, then one of us will have to ask Arne Wallander what's up with his demo installers.

Shooshie

Thanks, Shooshie. The problem was that I tried installing it on my VI drive; once I moved everything to my main hard drive (not my favorite idea though) it worked great. Haven't put it through any huge tests, but so far it sounds great. Thanks for the tip.

- Neil