Volume level in my mix

[jcp]

Hi.

Am I wrong? Everytime that I burn a CD with my last mix I run to the nearest CD player to hear it outside the studio stuff, and, when I compare it with a commercial CD, I hear that my recording has less volume level.

Is it normal? Is this the way it should be? Do I need something like "Finalizer"? Or is it something I'm missing?

I can´t rise the volume pods anymore because the leds go red (obviously), so, I don´t know, the mixer goes back to the 896mk3 Audio Interface and the Interface goes to the second computer via Toslink to Digital Performer (44.1 kHz, 16 Bit Integer) and burn it with iTunes. Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks

[Tonio]

What commercial CD are you comparing to? Hopefully similar genre? Sounds like you sending out to a hardware mixer, but hard to tell by your description.

Just remember commercial CD's have been mastered by professionals that have experience in what they are doing, assuming it is from a reputable source.

After the mix, you need to have the track mastered to bring up the level(limiting) and balance the the frequency response(EQ), which most DAW app's have and can be used. It may not be the best, but there are pug in for that purpose.

You just need to practice that last piece, or send it to a professional ME.

T

[jcp]

What commercial CD are you comparing to? Hopefully similar genre? Sounds like you sending out to a hardware mixer, but hard to tell by your description.

Just remember commercial CD's have been mastered by professionals that have experience in what they are doing, assuming it is from a reputable source.

After the mix, you need to have the track mastered to bring up the level(limiting) and balance the the frequency response(EQ), which most DAW app's have and can be used. It may not be the best, but there are pug in for that purpose.

You just need to practice that last piece, or send it to a professional ME.

T

Thanks for answering, I think I must insist.

Yes, any CD (Guns'n'Roses, Casiopea, Pink Floyd, anyone you can purchase in the Market). Yes, I'm sending out to a hardware mixer, let me describe it in detail:

I send my sequence from Digital Performer on my Computer (A). From the sequencer I send MIDI to external modules (M3, Motif, Roland, etc) and Audio to a 896mk3; all the audio (analog) outputs of these devices (MIDI and 896mk3) goes to a mixer; the mixer outputs go back to the 896mk3 input; I output the 896mk3 to another computer (B) via Toslink for the final deliver to a new Digital Performer Project.

To make it clear (cause i think i'm confusing my self ) i use the 896mk3 for diferent purposes at the same time .

I'm a jinglist since 2001 and I worked in professional studios. In all my mixes I noticed that disadvantage (we used to deliver to a DAT tape, by the way, and getting back to the computer to burn a CD) but never said something (you know, "hurry up, its for yestarday" and things like that).

So, is it the equipment? My set up? Is it only expirience on mastering? Thanks for your patience and for the valuable advice you did (and sorry cause, as you can see, my english is not good).

jcp

[jcp]

Sorry, I remember something else. Editing a video with my last mix on Adobe Premiere Pro (on a Windows XP), I used the function "Normalize" in the audio section and it gave 4db of gain, one time I recorded directly in the same computer from a Roland XP-60 and sounded great, but that is domestic equipment ??!!

jcp

[Tonio]

Hola jcp,

Ahh, so you are using a hybrid set up.

I have a hybrid system too, small analogue mixer-mostly just for the MIDI, and monitoring. But moving towards all ITB w/ VI's and such.

So it sounds like you are mixing at the mixer, and dumping into 896/DP as a stereo track.

Since you've done some jingle work, I would assume you have some experience at the final stage, i.e. processing that final 2 track?

If the mix is good to go, the final mastering (though is an art itself)should bring up the level. You need a good final limiter, and know how to use it for good RMS/peak levels. At least you're not comparing to the current compressed to a flat wave crap

T

[mhschmieder]

Also, normalizing rarely produces the desired results, and must be used very carefully. There are better approaches to achieving similar levels between different material.

Mastering is an art, and one that most of us reluctantly devote time to learning, due to the expectations today as well as how few of us have the budget for a pro mastering shop.

Mastering can totally change how something sounds, or it can just give it that pip that is needed to compete with commercial products in terms of perceived loudness and also actual volume.

It is important to have a great final stereo mix regardless, and it sounds like you have this down pat, between your "in the box" setup and your "out of the box" hardware hybrid approach.

So probably in your case, the best investment would be learning how to use a limiter on the final mix to produce a master. This would be the bare minimum of what is needed. There are some good articles on this, amongst them being the Ozone Mastering Guide from iZotope, which is useful whether or not you buy Ozone or any other mastering plug-ins or not, as it helps explain the process of achieving correct levels.

[jcp]

Thank you very much, guys. I really don't have problem with my mix, I like it, and better, my clients do . This was a question I was wondering and wanted to solve now. So, thanks again for your valuable advice.

jcp

[HCMarkus]

+1 to MHS' advice. If your mixes sound great, it is just a matter of getting the average level up to "competitive" levels. This is a big part of what mastering is all about, and though a pro mastering job will almost certainly sound better than a DIY version, you can "rough and ready" master using DP's Masterworks Limiter. You can tweak further using EQ and Multiband Compression, but an instance of Limiter should be last in the chain.

PS: Please resist the urge to smash you mixes into oblivion.

[jcp]

+1 to MHS' advice. If your mixes sound great, it is just a matter of getting the average level up to "competitive" levels. This is a big part of what mastering is all about, and though a pro mastering job will almost certainly sound better than a DIY version, you can "rough and ready" master using DP's Masterworks Limiter. You can tweak further using EQ and Multiband Compression, but an instance of Limiter should be last in the chain.

PS: Please resist the urge to smash you mixes into oblivion.

Thanks, HCMarkus, again you on the road . So, are you telling me that I can get the same results with DP's Limiter as the Izotope Ozone 4? I was reading its feutures and it has one that "Maximizes" the sound (Loudness Maximizer) "for giving your recordings professional loudness and fullness" (as the original in Ozone's page ) and "lets you get the loudness you want without introducing pumping and other unwanted limiting side effects". I sounds seductive (seductor) and I was thinking seriuosly buying it, but, if I understood, are you telling me I can get the same goal without spending $249.50 (Dlls)?

[mhschmieder]

We're just saying that if your budget is tight, you can still bring your mix up to mastering levels with the tools at hand.

Knowing how to use the tools is more important than which tools, but certainly Ozone 4 is great value, and the people who say it isn't transparent are in my mind probably sticking with presets and also not using Intelligent II Mode.

I use some of the presets as a launching off point, and moreso than with previous versions (when I almost exclusively did my own from scratch), as many of the newly added presets are way better and less over-the-top than before (especially if you turn off the dreadful EQ).

There are a couple of other limiter-only products available as piecemeal sales or as end-products in their own right, and demos are available to try out.

If budget is tight and you don't want to splurge on Ozone or similar tools quite yet, I highly recommend the Flux Limiter, which I am strongly considering purchasing on its own (90 euros, as I recall) vs. as part of one of the current package deals of other Flux products. It was by far the one that I found the most useful when briefly trying the demos. The others confused me a bit, but are also designed for surround sound.

The Flux Limiter, like all their plugs, really does sound like hardware. They are about the only native solution that get the green light from the hardware-only snobs and major Pro Mastering houses.

[mhschmieder]

I do need to make one more important point about Ozone 4, though, and that is its excellent MBIT+ dithering, which I had previously bypassed in favour of BIAS Peak Pro's POW-r based dithering.

Well, last weekend, I redid some masters for 16-bit and found the MBIT+ dithering set to Ultra with High resolution, made a HUGE difference on the 16-bit WAV and MP3's! For the first time, I am as happy with my 16-bit files as my 24-bit originals (as is the client).

What you do is save your 24-bit master, then bring up Ozone again with all of its components disabled and no preset selected. Go to the Loudness Maximizer module, and the dithering panel is still enabled. There you make your selections, then resave as a new filename, with 16-bit option selected but no dithering (this is more easily accomplished in a dedicated mastering program like Peak than in a multi-track DAW), so that you can keep your 24-bit original around for long-term archiving.

By doing it this way, Ozone does your dithering and the program that you host it in, simply truncates the last eight bits. That is in fact how you want it to happen at that point.

So, rule of thumb:

1. Perfect the final stereo mix
2. Master the mix
3. Dither to 16 bits
4. Save to 16-bit file format
5. Convert to MP3 or other consumer formats as needed

[busle]

I was using the MW Limiter the other day to try and bring up the level of one of my mixes, and despite the fact that I had set everything exactly according to what the manual suggests for moderate limiting on an overall mix, it was still peaking out. I had to pull back the master fader to something like -.9 db or so to get it to stop the clipping.

has anyone else run across this issue? I've seen it once before, but I've used it numerous times previously with no problems. what could be causing this?

[jcp]

I was using the MW Limiter the other day to try and bring up the level of one of my mixes, and despite the fact that I had set everything exactly according to what the manual suggests for moderate limiting on an overall mix, it was still peaking out. I had to pull back the master fader to something like -.9 db or so to get it to stop the clipping.

has anyone else run across this issue? I've seen it once before, but I've used it numerous times previously with no problems. what could be causing this?

May be your overall mix, but, how is the final sound? Is it (or was it before) at a normal CD level?

[HCMarkus]

As with any dynamics processor, limiting is completely dependant on input level and process threshold. Because levels can vary tremendously from mix to mix, setting input gain and limiting threshold is something that must be carefully fine tuned for each mix. Release times can make a big difference too. Use your meters and ears.

[conleycd]

I was using the MW Limiter the other day to try and bring up the level of one of my mixes, and despite the fact that I had set everything exactly according to what the manual suggests for moderate limiting on an overall mix, it was still peaking out. I had to pull back the master fader to something like -.9 db or so to get it to stop the clipping.

has anyone else run across this issue? I've seen it once before, but I've used it numerous times previously with no problems. what could be causing this?

Really shouldn't happen. In fact, I'd say it is impossible.

If the Limiter is set to 0db or - whatever - then it won't go above 0.

What can happen is if you put a plug in after the Limiter then that could give you clipping.

I've seen this even with a high pass filter at 20hz with a 6 db slope after the Limiter causing the master bus to clip.

With respect to the initial question. Mixed material without some form of compression and limiting will always sound quieter than an initial mix. That is actually fine - because commerically available stuff should have their tracks Mastered Properly.

Look at www.sterling-sound.com

They have some reasonable prices with their After Hours service.

CC