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My oldest step-son is celebrating his b-day this evening (12-years old) and has a few friends staying the night, so we got him ROCKBAND for the Ninteno Wii. Okay, we got it for ourselves but let him think it's his Seriously, what a great way to realize how bad you look like you can't play an instrument, I mean, seriously---it's pretty hard!

I see kids spending so much time doing this and wounder if they will decide to put that time in to playing for real.

twistedtom wrote:I see kids spending so much time doing this and wounder if they will decide to put that time in to playing for real.

I actually agree, I think I am from a generation gap (the over 30, under 40 crowd). I just don't get the rational of pretending to play an instrument, when I could actually be really practicing and mastering the instrument.

jgest wrote:

twistedtom wrote:I see kids spending so much time doing this and wounder if they will decide to put that time in to playing for real.

I actually agree, I think I am from a generation gap (the over 30, under 40 crowd). I just don't get the rational of pretending to play an instrument, when I could actually be really practicing and mastering the instrument.

You could have left it at "over 30". Because us over 40ers feel the same way. Back when I was starting out you had to practice guitar for something like 3 years before you got to play with drummers and stuff and it was another year before anyone would let you on a stage and then just so they could boo you off.

What happened to payin' yer dues?

The only good thing about Rock Band and friends is that the included tracks are classic songs with real guitar solos rather than the auto tuned beat box drivel that clutters up the charts these days and it is introducing a new generation to some decent music so I can have a conversation with them without sounding like the cranky old man on the corner yelling at his kids to get off the lawn.

Well, you can't say it doesn't have any benefits to the kids. It leads to a better understanding of rhythm, among other things. Sure, it isn't the same, but it's not a bad tool for getting the mechanics of doing something to a beat- I mean, clapping your hands to a beat consistently is a skill that has to be developed in young children, and it sets the developmental foundations for understanding all music. I think of these things as somewhat like that.

Larry Mal wrote:Well, you can't say it doesn't have any benefits to the kids. It leads to a better understanding of rhythm, among other things. Sure, it isn't the same, but it's not a bad tool for getting the mechanics of doing something to a beat- I mean, clapping your hands to a beat consistently is a skill that has to be developed in young children, and it sets the developmental foundations for understanding all music. I think of these things as somewhat like that.

Thats a great way of making lemonade out of lemons. Nice job!

SixStringGeek wrote: You could have left it at "over 30". Because us over 40ers feel the same way. Back when I was starting out you had to practice guitar for something like 3 years before you got to play with drummers and stuff and it was another year before anyone would let you on a stage and then just so they could boo you off.

I agree, it takes about (or it took me) 5 years to develope a "baseline" of mastery before one can transend their ego and understand how to to really listen to the other musicians you playing with. I made the "age" distinction, being of gen x and having some influences that some of my respected mentors did not jive too......ala grunge and alternative, electronica....no offense intended.

You'd be surprised.....I am getting calls at ALARMING rates these days for guitar starter packages just because of Guitar Hero. These kids pick up the game and play for fun, then it makes them interested in the real thing. Seriously, I think it's a GREAT thing for re-sparking musical interest. And the game is, well, FUN! I think that's what the key is--FUN.

I agree with you Brad- music is very often made to not be fun. It's hard to understand how this is possible to those of use who make it our lives, but the fact is a whole lot of kids get discouraged and give up. Even one is one too many. Among the negative things that children get in the way of musical education are parents who themselves weren't taught music, and therefore cannot participate in their children's musical lives; the idea that music is competitive and there is only room for the best; that musical instruments of any quality are not for children (which handicaps them greatly when they try to learn on hard to play instruments); that it is a prohibitive and unnecessary expense; and most of all that a child's musical career is a steady and visible path.

I mean, a kid can ignore a guitar in her room for years, and one day write a silly song on it, and that's just it for her. She'll do it the rest of her life, maybe, you never know. Don't do anything to discourage her, like telling her the lessons were a waste of money because she didn't practice all that much. Just let it be there when she wants it, don't push, don't judge. Like Brad says, let it be fun. No one begrudges a kid soccer because they don't grow up to be a pro at that.

So yeah, I am not going to judge Rockband or anything that might help a kid get interested in music. I imagine my strategy would be to play it with them, say hey, you think you might want to learn how they're doing this on their guitars, great, here's one, and it's a good one, play it when you want. Or don't. If you want lessons or magazines or whatever let me know. Let it be fun for them, like Brad says.

And to add....the ROCKBAND version comes with a microphone for vocals and a Drum Kit. THIS is what my step-son is taking more of an interest in. After playing it myself, it really is like playing real drums. There are (4) pads plus a kick pedal. The LEFT PAD is Snare, the LEFT CENTER is Hi Hat, the RIGHT CENTER PAD is a TOM and the RIGHT PAD is a CRASH. However it goes into a fill mode where they act as (4) Toms. It's amazing for teaching hand to eye coordination, timing, rhythm, and concentration. And here's the cool thing----we can sit down and do this as a family.

You make a good point, Brad. I have to admit that my visceral reaction to this has been negative, but after mulling it over, it seems that games like ROCKBAND and Guitar Hero might help ease a young person into becoming interested in a REAL instrument. In fact, I think ROCKBAND may even be vastly superior in this regard than Guitar Hero, because it is not a solitary activity. It gives kids a sense of the camaraderie and joy that is experienced by musicians working together as a team to perfect and deliver a flawless performance. It's a very positive force and any sort of game that brings kids together to interact in the same physical space is an improvement. My hope is this would get them thinking: "Hey... if it's this much fun pretending to be a band... what if Scott got some real drums... and I got a real guitar? What if we started a REAL band?"

Also, I'm not trying to be sexist here, but there's another benefit that I think applies particularly to the male psychology, and it's appropriate to point out because young boys (for now) will make up the majority of players of ROCKBAND. I believe there's an innate need for men to be part of a team with other men and derive satisfaction from working with common purpose toward a goal. Positive social interaction is also good medicine for normal emotional development and mental health. How many of you at some point in your lives have thought to yourselves, "If I didn't have music or my band, I don't know what I'd be doing. It keeps me sane."?

Any way if ROCKBAND, et. al. get even a few kids to join bands, instead of gangs, that's a good thing, too. I remember years ago when I was a teenager, my band was rehearsing in my bass player's mom's garage which was semi sound proofed. We came outside after practicing and an elderly neighbor woman was outside in her yard. We were concerned the noise might have disturbed her and she might complain, so we said hello and we apologized to her for the noise and asked if we needed to turn down. I always remembered her response. She said considering all the negative influences out there, and the sorts of trouble some teenage boys fall into when they have too much free time, she was happy to see us doing something so constructive. The "idle hands" idea. Wise woman.

James Steele wrote:I believe there's an innate need for men to be part of a team with other men and derive satisfaction from working with common purpose toward a goal.

Hmm, that's food for thought. Do you think men (boys) need this more than girls? Would this account for the music business being dominated by men? Perhaps it's this social need that attracts more males to the music business than females? I'm just thinking out loud here, but that's an interesting observation, James. I'd love to hear some women's thoughts on this. Ladies?

...or am I opening a can of worms?

Phil

My thought has always been that men are taught to be responsible to the group more, the method varies, but you can see this in old style manners like boys holding the door for women as well as sports and other group activities. Most cultures have this. My thought though, has always been that men and boys need this more, and so cultures address that in various ways.

Phil O wrote:

James Steele wrote:I believe there's an innate need for men to be part of a team with other men and derive satisfaction from working with common purpose toward a goal.

Hmm, that's food for thought. Do you think men (boys) need this more than girls? Would this account for the music business being dominated by men? Perhaps it's this social need that attracts more males to the music business than females? I'm just thinking out loud here, but that's an interesting observation, James. I'd love to hear some women's thoughts on this. Ladies?

...or am I opening a can of worms?

Phil

I'm just trying to sort of discuss concepts I've thought about and have been written about by many people. There is obviously a nature vs. nurture component and the reason boys tend to need this may be rooted more in the human history and predominantly patriarchal societies. It is probably an innate human tendency that manifests most in boys as traditionally they may have been pushed into team sports in greater numbers, and raised to be goal oriented. This, fortunately is changing, as more and more young women are pursuing careers in fields that used to be predominantly male-oriented. What's interesting is that it's proven that prolonged exposure to stress can shorten a person's expected lifespan, and as more women are in the workplace as executives and taking on the stress of very demanding jobs, we are witnessing a narrowing of the life expectancy gap between men and women. Women still tend to live longer than men, but not as much as before.

Humans are indeed social creatures. At first we grouped together and worked together because our very lives and survival depended on it. Due to technological, political, and societal "progress," it seems one can "survive" as an individual with little social interaction, but one cannot necessrily "thrive." I think many might agree that increasing the social isolation we see in or society may be having negative effects on our overall mental health. People who lack the support network of friends and family may lack an important tool in dealing with life's inevitable ups and downs.

I digress... but again, I feel that the "collaborative" aspect ROCKBAND (versus individual games like Guitar Hero) may have a positive benefit-- if not in a child's direct musical development, then at least in their social development.

That said, I somewhat hypocritically need to get back to work on my solo CD today... LOL.

Not having seen about RockBand in action (nor really caring to) I reserve comment. What I would like to see is a version called OrchestralPlayer or maybe PianoSoloist. If that could make someone better at the classical rep, I'm all for it. I remain skeptical about RB but really need to see what all the hullabaloo is all about. Since I don;t have an Xbox or 360 or whatever it requires (as I don't have a single game on my computer) I'll have to find someone or someplace that does.

Maybe someone could tell me how this differs from AirGuitar?

James Steele wrote:Due to technological, political, and societal "progress," it seems one can "survive" as an individual with little social interaction, but one cannot necessrily "thrive."

And yet we see a move away from "tribal" customs. Would you agree that music is very tribal, and as such important to us "thriving?"

I think we're overdue for another musical revolution.

Phil