TC PoCo VSS3

[James Steele]

The other night I went by the TC website, and actually for the first time discovered this plug. $650 sounds like a lot. More than I'd care to invest. Maybe with the UAD-2 being released TC will rethink their pricing structure. I have to say though that even upon loading their QuickTime demo movie I was pretty impressed by the lushness of the reverb I heard. Is the VSS3 *that* good?

[mhschmieder]

James, I haven't used that specific plug more than a couple of times, when experimenting with all the plugs just to see what they offered. It's very silky and impressive in breadth and even ease of use (even though I still have trouble getting deep on MD3, which has a similar interface), as is NonLin. The other high-end reverbs from PoCo seem rather unnecessary to me anymore, as I tend to task Altiverb for the sorts of situations they are designed to address. VSS and NonLin are a bit more specialised and/or unordinary though, so are not made redundant by Altiverb.

But you might want to check out FabrikR (or however it's spelled) -- and the other Fabrik plug-in while you're at it as well. Much of the "material" in the high-end reverb plugs (the ones that use the System 6000 styled interfaces, like MD3), makes its way into FabrikR.

And it is WAY intuitive to use. Trivial to dial up a custom sound that suits the purpose, quickly. It's a truly innovative interface with a 3D GUI paradigm (not 3D as in rotating cubes, but as in "3 degrees of freedom" in terms of sort of having you navigate inside a matrix to get the best combination of parameters for your specific purpose and/or genre).

It's MUCH cheaper than VSS3. And it is in some ways more versatile, as it is also capable of some of the stuff that NonLin can do as well. It covers a lot of ground for many different types of stock reverbs, but consolidates them into an interface that has you thinking more about your actual PURPOSE than in how to translate that purpose into the arcane parameters of a specific plug.

[cbergm7210]

Hey James,

I did much research when I came over to DP this year and since I had a PoCo setup I read many reviews on the VSS3. Every review I read gave high praise for this verb. So after using all my verbs in real life mixes for months I decided to spring for the VSS3 as I was coming up short on the WAVEs verbs and others that I was trying.

I've never looked back. The plug is indeed stellar. It is impossible to dial up a verb that sounds bad. Inappropriate for the specific application, but you never get a setting that sounds harsh or grainy or metallic. You know the cheap sound I am talking about. It just doesn't exist with this plug.

Give it a try and see what you think. Just my 2 cents.

Chris

[James Steele]

Thanks for the info Chris. Unfortunately I have an Element card which apparently due to insufficient memory is unable to run demos. At $650 anyway, it's out of my reach and probably more than I need at the moment. I was just curious about it. Thanks so much for the info!

[monkey man]

No worries there, Jimbo: You can download WAV IRs of the TC M3000, TC PowerCore (ClassicVerb) and 24 as well as 32 bit collections from the TC VSS3 here (I've translated the page):

http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/transla ... l&.intl=us

Granted, IRs produce somewhat static results sans plug-featured processing, and the VSS algorithm/s probably utilise various subtle modulations over time, but IMHO you may well be able to pull some pleasing 'verbs for nicks from the above-referenced files.

[James Steele]

Thanks for the info, Nicky!

[monkey man]

Hey, I'm just holding down the bottom end here. A 5-string would be cool though.

[mhschmieder]

Nicky has a good point:

Altiverb (and other convolution playback engines) can serve as a good way of "trying out" algorithmic reverbs before investing in the "real thing". You can tell a lot about a reverb's character and suitability, even without full algorithmic control.

The Lexicon reverbs in Altiverb were how I learned that those would be my preference for most vocal and synth processing. So then I bought IK Multimedia's CSR, which is essentially an emulation of famous Lexicon reverbs.

I didn't know the TC Powercore reverbs were available as impulse responses. I'm lucky though that the demos are working on my Firewire rack version, and have rather luxurious time limits on trial usage.

Though on re-reading the specs for VSS3 specifically, I notice it supports modulation, chorusing, and de-tuning -- all of which would be difficult to capture with impulse responses (though there is that newish impulse response box that attempts to emulate every effect out there; including ones that are time-variant and involve modulation and feedback).

[tripit@earthlink.net]

The other night I went by the TC website, and actually for the first time discovered this plug. $650 sounds like a lot. More than I'd care to invest. Maybe with the UAD-2 being released TC will rethink their pricing structure. I have to say though that even upon loading their QuickTime demo movie I was pretty impressed by the lushness of the reverb I heard. Is the VSS3 *that* good?

I have the VSS3 TDM plug (plus the MD3) and both are outstanding. Expensive, but well worth it if verb is important to you. I use the VSS3 along side with Altiverb and I've never looked back.

The VSS3 is essentially the plug in version of the world class ($11,000.00) TC 6000 series and uses the same engine. It's expensive because it really is world class. I know some people that A/B'd the TDM plug with the hardware version while at the Todd AO mix stage and they said it was spot on. They couldn't really tell the difference. It's that good.

Sound wise, the TC 6000 isn't quite as lush as say a Lexi 960 - which has a more smeared lushness. Some people prefer the Lexi, as it tends to have more of a color to it. The 6000 is more of a room simulator than just an out and out verb - and it's got great clarity. It doesn't cloud up a mix. It's pretty much the main stay for mix stages and mastering. Also, while you can't load IR's like Altiverb in the VSS3, the presets it comes with cover a lot of ground, and you can tweak all kinds of things in it.

The MD3 compressor is also fantastic (also part of the TC 6000 series) It's probably the best mastering plug compressor I've ever used - and I have a lot of multiband compressor plugs. Again, it always comes out ahead from all the other compressors I've used. It's smoother and richer sounding than anything else.

If you look up pro reviews on either VSS3 or the MD3, you'll find that they usually score the best. Something about the plugs puts them a notch above everyone else.

[mhschmieder]

The MD3 is magic. I just wish I could figure out better how to come up with my own custom presets. I find it difficult to map what I know into its interface and workflow, but maybe it's best to not bother and just approach it as a new tool and use my ears instead. At any rate, even the presets are giving me better results than my own custom settings in other mastering tools.

The same might be said of VSS3, as it is really a new paradigm (just as the two Fabrik PoCo plug-ins are). In all of these plug-ins, it is difficult to get bad results . That encourages experimentation, of course.

[tripit@earthlink.net]

The MD3 is magic. I just wish I could figure out better how to come up with my own custom presets. I find it difficult to map what I know into its interface and workflow, but maybe it's best to not bother and just approach it as a new tool and use my ears instead. At any rate, even the presets are giving me better results than my own custom settings in other mastering tools.

The same might be said of VSS3, as it is really a new paradigm (just as the two Fabrik PoCo plug-ins are). In all of these plug-ins, it is difficult to get bad results . That encourages experimentation, of course.

I agree. The MD3 is the smoothest, most detailed and best sounding master compressor plug I've ever used. I've found that using 2 inserts, each one serving a different function has given me some great results. The tape simulation is excellent. I use that (tweaked a bit for high and lows in MS config) and then follow that up with the MS CD master.
It's takes a little playing around to really learn what it can do. There is a lot of power under the hood.

[cbergm7210]

The MD3 is magic. I just wish I could figure out better how to come up with my own custom presets. I find it difficult to map what I know into its interface and workflow, but maybe it's best to not bother and just approach it as a new tool and use my ears instead. At any rate, even the presets are giving me better results than my own custom settings in other mastering tools.

The same might be said of VSS3, as it is really a new paradigm (just as the two Fabrik PoCo plug-ins are). In all of these plug-ins, it is difficult to get bad results . That encourages experimentation, of course.

I agree. The MD3 is the smoothest, most detailed and best sounding master compressor plug I've ever used. I've found that using 2 inserts, each one serving a different function has given me some great results. The tape simulation is excellent. I use that (tweaked a bit for high and lows in MS config) and then follow that up with the MS CD master.
It's takes a little playing around to really learn what it can do. There is a lot of power under the hood.

100% agree here as well. The MD3 is fantastic.

When I came to DP this year I had become intimately familiar with the Finalizer Plus for 10 + years, so I was happy to dive into the MD3 as the "replacement". It is even better than the FP.

I also agree about dialing in the exact sound. It's not a "whip it up and forget it quickly" kind of situation. But it can get you where ever you want to go in style.

Interesting about using two instances in a row with the tape simulator first. You know, I did not even see that preset, so thanks for mentioning that!

A question for the MD3 users: Do you find much better / different results working with the MS mode as opposed to stereo? At the time I have pretty much kept the plug in stereo mode, but I would like to know your thoughts comparing the two modes.

Thanks,

Chris

[mhschmieder]

I only brought up MD3 to make a point about the design paradigm of these newer System 6000 derived PoCo plug-ins like VSS3. It's a completely different workflow and visual layout than most of us are used to, as well as mapping the more typical parameters in a different way.

What we all seem to agree on, is that these high-end plugs are hard to go wrong with. That is, it would take a concerted effort, it seems, to actually have them degrade a track or a mix.

I apologise if bringing up the MD3 got this discussion off-track.

[mhschmieder]

BTW, you can get VSS3 for significantly less than the mentioned price. I know it's against policy to state vendor links etc. This is a legit vendor, from whom I bought my PoCo Firewire, my Yamaha MOTIF-Rack XS, and a few now-sold items. They are quite specialised and cater only to pros, which helps them keep prices way down as they don't waste energy with so many returns.

[tripit@earthlink.net]

[
A question for the MD3 users: Do you find much better / different results working with the MS mode as opposed to stereo? At the time I have pretty much kept the plug in stereo mode, but I would like to know your thoughts comparing the two modes.

Thanks,

Chris

Err..sorry James for hijacking the thread. I'll answer this one and bug out.
It really depends on the music. MS gives you more fill on the sides and a cleaner center, but sometimes that isn't the best - like with rock stuff. But
I'm a huge fan of MS. I use it recording as much as possible. I like to MS piano, B3 with leslie, sometimes on drum room mics etc.
One great thing about MS is that it collapses into mono without phase issues.
Also, I like really wide stereo. Not artifically induced like with a widening plug, but naturally or through MS.
I also try to use MS on orchestral stuff and film scoring because it
sounds wider and more importantly it keeps the middle more open for dialog.