Digital Performer and MTP-AV USB

[ggm1960]

Hi All, a quick question.....

Can I create and edit Modifiers, MIDI Cannons and Patches on the MIDI Timepiece AV-USB with DP in OSX (10.4.11)?

[ggm1960]

What would be the best book or video tutorial with the specific intent of using DP (5.13) for live performances?

[James Steele]

Hi All, a quick question.....

Can I create and edit Modifiers, MIDI Cannons and Patches on the MIDI Timepiece AV-USB with DP in OSX (10.4.11)?

I'm thinking if there's any software that you can do that it, perhaps it would be Clockworks?

[Shooshie]

You can't do most of what you said in MTP-AV itself. What you CAN do is reroute channels, reconfigure MIDI studio connections without physically having to reconnect the cables, filter some MIDI events on particular channels, stripe a channel for MIDI Time Code or SMPTE, and do a little fancy footwork with pedal conversions. I don't think you can transform MIDI patch lists, but you can filter events from certain devices or mute certain channels or cables.

And James is right; all the above takes place in Clockworks.

If you want to modify patches and reprogram your MIDI devices for customized patch lists, you need Unisyn. I have it, and it still works, but I'm not sure if MOTU is still supporting it on the Intel machines. I have somehow been able to keep it working on my Intel Mac Pro -- obviously it's running in Rosetta. Unisyn was never the best librarian, but it did what I needed, which was to quickly load whole new banks of patches when I need them, and to program patches in a graphic editor rather than using those button-menus in a little LCD window not much larger than a calculator on those old rack units. The time it saves in that regard is immense.

Due to the huge shift toward VI's and the almost complete and sudden drop-off in the market for new rack units and keyboards, I doubt that we'll ever see a fully-featured librarian again, so grab Unisyn if you need that, and pray that you can keep it running with a little help from MOTU. Don't count on full satisfaction; it's an aged tool from 15 years ago, fortunately updated for OSX, but not maintained since then.

Clockworks, on the other hand, is kept up to date, but it's a frustrating little devil of a utility that requires trial-and-error learning and a rethinking of how you approach software. It is a graphic interface for a piece of hardware, so it's not like they can change the logic of how the hardware works. You are basically using a graphic interface to push buttons on the front of your MTP-AV, and while it's a heckuva lot better than the buttons, it still has that hardware "mentality" about it. You have to think through what you want and how to get there, then test it. Once you figure it out, it's pretty nice, as you can store up to... I think 8 different complete settings, accessible either through Clockworks or through the front panel knob. Having different setups can be handy when you want to change routings and MIDI connections instantly, then go back to the way things were without having to think through it again.

I feel like MIDI itself is kind of caught between two ages, and we're stuck with it due to the legacy of old rack units and keyboards, but gradually we're going to see USB keyboards and VI's replace it almost entirely but for the necessary retrofitting which may always be there for unsurpassable keyboards like the Kurzweil 2600 series and the ever popular Roland units which are going to be around for at least a generation of users. It's sad that development in the MIDI area seems to be 100% frozen in time, and we're stuck with these barely-operating interfaces that are iffy in their performance at best, while OSX, our DAWs, sample libraries and VI's are flourishing and showing us what is possible. These are the instruments we used to dream about while programming envelopes and vainly searching for the operator/algorithm combination that would produce even a fraction of the realism and control to which we are now spoiled. Why would anyone want to use a rack unit running off of slow production-line chips to deliver crippled algorithms, chopped samples, and impossible interfaces? Only my Kurzweil 2600 continues to give me any joy at all in that regard, but it was miraculously ahead of its time, and now feels only a generation of obsolescence. I don't use it for samples anymore, but it still serves up some bitchin' synth and vintage sounds, and its 88-key Fatar weighted keyboard still holds its own against pretty much any keyboard out there when driving a great library like Ivory.

There's only one advantage left in those old rack units: they always work. You don't have to keep upgrading them and worrying whether their maker will go out of business before Apple creates SnowLeopard OS. And that's where Unisyn still does pretty much all it ever did, with possibly a bug here or there. But it will still reprogram your rack units and keyboards, and DP can re-download the patch lists.

More than you wanted to know, but I guess you innocently kicked over a levee and got a flood in return. Hope you find something useful in it.

Shooshie

[ggm1960]

Hi All, a quick question.....

Can I create and edit Modifiers, MIDI Cannons and Patches on the MIDI Timepiece AV-USB with DP in OSX (10.4.11)?

I'm thinking if there's any software that you can do that it, perhaps it would be Clockworks?

It can all be done in the OS9 version of Clockworks, you should look at it, it's really quite amazing. The OSX version of Clockworks is just as retarded as the Windows version. Because no one used all these marvelous features, MOTU didn't port the software over!

I tired of having to use an old Lombard G3 laptop to setup my MTP units (OS9 Clockworks has it's bugs like all MOTU software) so I went ahead and began using DP5.13 anyway. Although DP doesn't setup the MTP units the way Clockworks does, it's not necessary when DP is running the system.

[jquesta]

Sorry to bring this post back from the dead, but am I correct in believing that the OS X version of Clockworks will NOT let you edit Modifiers and Patches? I can't seam to find it anywhere in the software, but it's very possible I'm looking in the wrong place.

The ability to edit Patches, Modifiers and MIDI-Cannon's is the sole reason for me owning an AV - it's a live gig lifesaver - I only purchased a USB AV so I could start using my new computers that only run OS X (my G3 tower is about dead - need to move up).

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

- Jim -

[ggm1960]

am I correct in believing that the OS X version of Clockworks will NOT let you edit Modifiers and Patches?

Those features are only accessible using the OS9 version of Clockworks, the OSX version doesn't have them and is the same as the Win version.

[jquesta]

oh - how lovely.... I just dropped $400.00 for nothing.

Does anyone know of a way to access the AV through the OS9 emulator on a USB Mac?

* Added * Does anyone know of any other unit that performs the same or similar live functions (Patches, Modifiers, MIDI Cannon) that is programmable and restorable from a USB Mac Laptop? If this is too off topic, please send via PM.

Thanks everyone.

- Jim -

[Shooshie]

I'm glad you brought that up. I've been looking for it myself, and had started wondering if I was imagining things before. I used to do some amazing things with Clockworks, including routing any device to any other device. Now it seems that nothing works quite the same as it once did. Attempts to route an expression pedal unit to a synth no longer work. Things aren't what they used to be in Clockworks. That's a shame.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Also, there is some kind of MIDI conversion software out there, but I can't remember what it's called. I've seen it mentioned here in the past month, so maybe someone will post it.

[jquesta]

I used to do some amazing things with Clockworks, including routing any device to any other device.

That is exactly how I have my live rig set up. All of my routings and patch changes are programmed into the AV, so one button push on my K2500 reroutes all of my keyboards and modules, as well as patch change and other required data via the MIDI Cannon to all of the units. It's the most solid part of my rig.

I've been working with the AV since the first serial units were released. In fact I worked directly with MOTU as there were some flaws with the way Patch, Modifier and MIDI Cannon data were stored on the AV. They ended up burning a new set of PROMs for my AV that they later made available to everyone else after the problem was Resolved.

It's incredibly distressing that this functionality couldn't be brought forward into the land of OSX and USB. I'd really like to know why it wasn't possible - whether it was an OS issue, a USB issue, the code wasn't available to port into OSX (I recall there was a mention that the MIDI Cannon code was not originally MOTU code, but a 3rd party), or just an oversight because there are only a few of us that use these units like this. If the later is the case, it's my opinion that the statements of this functionality need to be followed by a clear statement that you cannot access it through the front panel OR the Clockworks software - you obviously can't access these higher functions without OS9 and a supported serial port. It's implied by a ** after the function is described - real nice...

If anyone has a work around for any of this, I'd love to hear it. I'll be spending many hours trying to rethink my entire live keyboard rig if I can't find a fix, and the value of the MTP AV will have been drastically diminished.

[David Polich]

If all you are doing is sending patch/bank changes to everything in your
rig,(or even additional info such as sysex), then you can already do this
in DP, you don't need the MIDI Timepiece, except as a hardware MIDI cable router.

Here's my suggestion - get a laptop and put it in your live setup. You
can make each song in your set a "chunk", and assign each chunk to a Mac key, and within each chunk you can specify program/bank changes and sysex dumps
to each individual piece in your rig. You can also control any keyboard from any other keyboard, and call up specific VI's within a V-rack, per song (if you also have an audio interface in your rack). This is how I programmed the keyboard setups for the Michael Jackson "This Is It" band.

It's far more flexible than anything you could ever set up in the MIDI Timepiece AV USB, and you don't have to squint at a little LCD to do it either.

[jquesta]

If all you are doing is sending patch/bank changes to everything in your
rig,(or even additional info such as sysex), then you can already do this
in DP, you don't need the MIDI Timepiece, except as a hardware MIDI cable router.

Thank you David - Awesome suggestion.

I wonder - is it possible to cue a chunk by a program change? If so, it might be a very simple process of making the switch, plus adding VI's (which is where I was heading next).

Thanks for your help,

- Jim -

[ggm1960]

I wonder - is it possible to cue a chunk by a program change? If so, it might be a very simple process of making the switch, plus adding VI's (which is where I was heading next).

Thanks for your help,

- Jim -

Like you I had a whole nights worth of patch changes setup with both a MTP II and MTP AV USB using the OS9 version of Clockworks. It was a long complicated process and at the time I did not even use DP.

After switching to OSX and discovering how dumbed down the Clockworks program had become I became extremely frustrated and angry for a while and then finally went to using DP5.13. With DP the Clockworks program is all but un-needed (I've only used it of late to setup a start/stop foot switch).
You can easily setup chunk changes from an external synth by going into the Commands window.

Alternately there is a program I used to use on PC called Bome's MIDI Translator. Within the last year they came out with a Mac version and I was in on the beta testing for a while but then left that behind after switching to DP.

[jquesta]

Awesome information everyone (which is why I have always loved this list - just haven't needed it for a while. )

Thanks everyone for your advise - I'm going to see how quickly I can get things configured. I'd love to use some of the VI's too - they're a lot cheeper than a new keyboard or modual these days.

- Jim -