Best piano sample library? especially Steinway?

[Shooshie]

I have been listening to Joe's piano demos. I'm not sure what to say. I think Joe could make a Casio sound great. Those were very interesting performances. I've never heard either piece sound that way. I guess I can say that there are performances I like equally as well, but which are totally different. That's a good thing. Better still that I find myself totally consumed with the performance, and not even thinking about the VI at all. That, to me, spells success. The VI has become transparent and faded out of the picture completely, leaving us with the particulars of the performance to debate, rather than the VI. That said, I did notice things from time to time that in retrospect I wonder whether they were Joe's playing or the VI, and now I'm starting to lean toward the instrument being at fault; particularly a harshness in the bass at times that distracted from the right hand, especially when playing FF bass octaves in the Hammerklavier fugue.

By the way, I think the webmaster needs to be informed that Liebesfreud is by Kreisler, arranged by Rachmaninoff. Maybe everyone knows that, but I would not make that assumption in this day and age. Kreisler was still famous in my generation, but I think his fame had waned by the 1990's, and anyone coming of musical age from 1985 onward might never have heard his wonderful violin recordings, scratchy and old as they were.

Anyway, back to the piano performances, whether or not I agree with everything you chose to do, Joe, I have to say WELL DONE! Really excellent work, and the fact that it leaves me wondering if I like this or that should be considered success of the highest order. It causes me to listen again and again, figuring out what you did and why or why not that I like it. Unique performances!



Shooshie

[jcfelice88keys]

I send my warmest Hello to Messrs. Frodo and Shoosie, Dave, and fellow Unicorns:

It is a wonderful feeling to read your collective compliments about my piano performances featured at the EWQL Piano website. Decades of dedicated study and hard work are coming together for me, in that I am able to create musical performances that stir the soul. The greatest compliment one can receive, Shoosie, is that a musical performance caused the listener to forget about the medium of the sound, and just concentrate on the music, whether it be Beethoven, Kreisler, etc.

Several contributors have made quite valid points on VI sounds, MIDI controllers, standardization, etc. in this thread. It is in the spirit of this forum that my performances were captured using DP5 as a virtual tape recorder, with my fingers playing on a 20 year old Roland A80 MIDI controller.

I would encourage each an every one of you to "play* like there's no tomorrow!" (* = play or sequence or step enter ... whatever you are the best at and whatever gives you the most enjoyment).


In a previous message, Shoosie mused that I could make a Casio sound great. Let's think about that for a moment:


(EDIT: As I am reading this before submitting, it sounds as though I am lecturing you. Please forgive me, because this is NOT the intent to lecture you! I am trying to put into words those qualities that I believe change merely notes into something we recognize as "music".)




The actual notes that I played in the Beethoven and Kreisler-Rachmaninoff could be duplicated by anyone else ... after all, they are just notes on the page I was playing. But the notes themselves (played at a rock steady tempo and no variation in velocity) are analogous to the pulse of a human body kept alive on life support without a functioning frontal cortex.

There is much more to music than just the notes. Regardless of musical style, I as a (digital) performer have to have in mind HOW I want to communicate the notes as music. In other words, I have to have in mind the message I wish to communicate with the music ... how to build the dynamics to create tension and release, where to subtly accelerate and ritard, which line to bring out, and so forth.

Of course, there's no denying that the sound of a real/sampled/modeled piano is important. But having a world class sound at one's fingertips .. be it a Yamaha Disklavier, a real Steinway that is meticulously cared for and regulated, EWQL pianos, Authorized Steinway, Pianotec, Ivory, Akoustik Piano, Roland P-55, Casio, toy piano ... does not guarantee a musical performance!!!

So you see, music is more than the physical "sound" of the notes ... I firmly believe that a musical performance originates in the performer's mind, first and foremost. The instrument is only an inanimate device for making noise. It is HOW we convert the level of noise at our disposal .. into MUSIC -- that really counts in the minds of performer and listener!

Although I do have access to a 50 rank Berghaus pipe organ, a nice Steinway grand, and have even spent two weeks alone with Elton John's Red Piano (C7 Disklavier Mark IV) -- when I bought my first computer in 1990, a Mac IIsi with an Emu Proformance piano module (about 1MB of sounds!), I WAS making music on it!

And as I was making music on my lowly piano module in 1990, and (before the days of hard disk recording) sent the analog outputs into a Pioneer cassette deck -- I know you are not going to believe this -- but I was having a hard time telling if my cassette recorded music was played on a real piano or not!!!!

You see, folks, I was concentrating soooo hard on making MUSIC that the physical sound was transparent to me! The horrible sound (by today's standards) actually DID sound like a real piano to me!

Enough of my rambling. I suppose I will end this lengthy post by encouraging all of you ... yes ALL of you ... to take the time and concentrate on what your true passion is: Making Music -- like making love .... there is a difference between having sex and making love! PLEASE instill making love/making music aspect in your music!!!

Cheers,

Joe

[zed]

...take the time and concentrate on what your true passion is: Making Music -- like making love .... there is a difference between having sex and making love! PLEASE instill making love/making music aspect in your music!!!

Beautifully put Joe. I enjoyed your post, and also your recordings on the EW site. Glad to welcome you to our community!

[toodamnhip]

Cheers,

Joe[/quote]

And as I was making music on my lowly piano module in 1990, and (before the days of hard disk recording) sent the analog outputs into a Pioneer cassette deck -- I know you are not going to believe this -- but I was having a hard time telling if my cassette recorded music was played on a real piano or not!!!!

You see, folks, I was concentrating soooo hard on making MUSIC that the physical sound was transparent to me! The horrible sound (by today's standards) actually DID sound like a real piano to me

------------
This was my point about the controllers and the sound libraries..if they hinder the performance, it is a problem...and if a performance is so focused like yours, it is often beyond technological limitations....But for sure it is not just the library that makes the quality..

I too have some magic "old" recordings on cassette...again, like you, I was so focused on the "intent" of the communication that I surpassed technical problems...
Often, in our gear lust, we focus so much on the sound of a library...forgetting about this aspect of pure musical intention...

Sometimes I get calls to produce a record and occassionally, a person will ask me about what equipment I have, my price, why don;t I charge so and so amount like the other guy around the corner...

And I say- "I know how to make magic with what I have and people that come to me are paying for ME"..not my mic pres...

Shooshie is right..with enough intent, one can communicate beautifully with a Casio....

Now if Waves would quite freezing my effing comp, I could actually get my latest "magic" to tape...

D


ps...

Here's another thought..

Ever thought your studio MIDI music was really happening and then gone and seen someone like Chic Corea or Herbie Hancock or Sonny Rollins?...

Such an experience will quickly define what the essense of music really is!
It is not all this MIDI for sure...lol...

[Frodo]

This was my point about the controllers and the sound libraries..if they hinder the performance, it is a problem...

I remember having to rethink my keyboard setup as VIs made their entry onto the scene. The old Korg-Yamaha-Roland keyboards were not only bulky, but the sounds that identified each had grown long in the tooth. The simply had to go, for as fond of them as I was.

Long story short, I found that I had to choose a different MIDI controller that made sense, especially for piano VIs, that being a decent weighted action keyboard. I'm not 100% sure it fits every purpose, but it has served me well for rendering piano tracks. I think part of it is that the particular keyboard I have has its own action adjustment. A simple click of a button toggles through a light, medium, and heavy action behavior. This, in conjunction with programmable velocity curves on different VIs has really come in handy.

This is what fascinates me about the world of MIDI controllers in general. What homebilly, Shooshie, rikp and others have been able to accomplish so admirably with various wind controllers hammered the point home that if you want to get the job done you need the right tools. I will never master the art of wind control, but just gaining an appreciation of what those who use wind controllers can do and what those devices add to a virtual realization (where wind and brass instruments are concerned) gave me much to think about.

[Frodo]

Here's another thought..

Ever thought your studio MIDI music was really happening and then gone and seen someone like Chic Corea or Herbie Hancock or Sonny Rollins?...

Ouch.

Indeed, there's a major lesson in futility at some point. But then I'm also stuck between justifying what gear I use and reconciling what the likes of Chick, Herbie, and Sonny would do with my gear.

That's a whole lesson apart from dealing with technical media itself. I'll put on a CD of the likes of these guys and end up spending hours listening, then eventually just calling a temporary moratorium on my own work for the night.

[Shooshie]

Here's another thought..

Ever thought your studio MIDI music was really happening and then gone and seen someone like Chic Corea or Herbie Hancock or Sonny Rollins?...

Such an experience will quickly define what the essense of music really is!
It is not all this MIDI for sure...lol...

I've been to as many concerts as anyone, and I've performed in my share of them. But I would never agree with the statement above. If I did, then I'd throw out all this MIDI and forget about it. If I'm not making music with MIDI, then I have no business here. Toodam, that's an absurd thing to say. Ridiculous! It's like saying that Joe Zawinul was a great musician on piano, but when he played synths he wasn't making music. Or that it's too bad Billy Joel used a Rhodes. Otherwise he'd have been a real musician.

MIDI is just another means of making and/or recording music. If it doesn't float your boat, then get out of the harbor! But you hear MIDI music all the time, every time you turn on the radio, every time you go to a pop/rock concert, and it's not unheard of in the classical concert hall, either.

I've watched SRO audiences of thousands give spontaneous standing ovations multiple times in each performance of a show that was 80% MIDI. What do you say to that?

Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

Here's another thought..

Ever thought your studio MIDI music was really happening and then gone and seen someone like Chic Corea or Herbie Hancock or Sonny Rollins?...

Such an experience will quickly define what the essense of music really is!
It is not all this MIDI for sure...lol...

I've been to as many concerts as anyone, and I've performed in my share of them. But I would never agree with the statement above. If I did, then I'd throw out all this MIDI and forget about it. If I'm not making music with MIDI, then I have no business here. Toodam, that's an absurd thing to say. Ridiculous! It's like saying that Joe Zawinul was a great musician on piano, but when he played synths he wasn't making music. Or that it's too bad Billy Joel used a Rhodes. Otherwise he'd have been a real musician.

MIDI is just another means of making and/or recording music. If it doesn't float your boat, then get out of the harbor! But you hear MIDI music all the time, every time you turn on the radio, every time you go to a pop/rock concert, and it's not unheard of in the classical concert hall, either.

I've watched SRO audiences of thousands give spontaneous standing ovations multiple times in each performance of a show that was 80% MIDI. What do you say to that?

Shooshie

Well..we all have our viewpoints and our experiences....

It has been mine that what once appears like a great job of work in the MIDI rhelm, after being painstakingly worked over for countless hrs...easily begins to sound thin and weak when in the presence of the greats...or even MIDI's REAL counterparts...

I don;t think what I said was absurd at all and consider it completely valid...being my viewpoint..

The word absurd is too harsh my brotha..use it if you must...

but to me, we manufacture reality with MIDI...I do a damn good job..I;m known for it..I am proud of my MIDI work..But reality still wins...even if the competition is getting closer..

What you said about me getting out was a bit silly and emotional..I mean..of course I need MIDI..

I do not want to cart a string section into my studio every time I work..

And I absolutley love my MIDI orchestrations...

But the richness of the real thing is just impossible to match...

having just worked with David Campbell and Faith for example..

the MIDI , great as it was, just didn;t cut it...Great Nashville string players playing exactly what was written, discussing the phrasing and interpretation on scene and playing to THAT exact orchestration?...

There's a richness, a depth..it cannot be compared with.

In MIDI, it can be gotten close to of course..but then it becomes a time thing..

The time I have to spend making strings sound right for example...

Compared to the one take of a real Orchestra at Capitol?....

MIDI has its place..but it is still far below reality in many ways and circumstances...and it requires such technical persistence to focus on the out points and fix the articulations..etc...
It surely puts one in a technical mind set as compared to the music mind...it;s all good man, but it is an add on to what music is in a pure sense..and it is there because of finance for the most part..and finance has little to do with the bottom line of is music great or not..is it deep, magic, on the spot, inspired...all possible in MIDI, but again, a copy of the real thing..


Go sample every note you can have Sonny Rollins play..in every way you can think of..then go and write the best sax solo you can, spend forever on it if you need!..
And then have him come in and blow for 5 minutes....

Then you'll get my point
I am not absurd at all.

[zed]

Here's another thought..

Ever thought your studio MIDI music was really happening and then gone and seen someone like Chic Corea or Herbie Hancock or Sonny Rollins?...

Such an experience will quickly define what the essense of music really is!
It is not all this MIDI for sure...lol...

I think Shooshie probably mistook the intention of your comment.

I know exactly what you mean. I have definitely had the experience of working for hours on some MIDI string performance and thinking that it was sounding pretty impressive, only to go to a concert at a local venue and hear a real string performance and shudder at how much better (and natural) it sounded. That can be depressing.

And then I have similar experiences, regularly, when I compare my tracks to some of my favorite studio recordings. I am obsessed with trying to stretch the limits of these VIs to create performances that rival the ones which I love... but I often fail.

Since most of what I do is pop/rock oriented, I can often get away with using virtual instruments which do not need to sound as good (or articulate as well) as the real thing... but sometimes it drives me crazy trying to simulate the authenticity of the magic of master performers in a great sounding space.

[toodamnhip]

Here's another thought..

Ever thought your studio MIDI music was really happening and then gone and seen someone like Chic Corea or Herbie Hancock or Sonny Rollins?...

Such an experience will quickly define what the essense of music really is!
It is not all this MIDI for sure...lol...

I think Shooshie probably mistook the intention of your comment.

I know exactly what you mean. I have definitely had the experience of working for hours on some MIDI string performance and thinking that it was sounding pretty impressive, only to go to a concert at a local venue and hear a real string performance and shudder at how much better (and natural) it sounded. That can be depressing.

And then I have similar experiences, regularly, when I compare my tracks to some of my favorite studio recordings. I am obsessed with trying to stretch the limits of these VIs to create performances that rival the ones which I love... but I often fail.

Since most of what I do is pop/rock oriented, I can often get away with using virtual instruments which do not need to sound as good (or articulate as well) as the real thing... but sometimes it drives me crazy trying to simulate the authenticity of the magic of master performers in a great sounding space.

Indeed....
We think we've "got it"..and then reality sets in when we hear the real thing...
This has to be true almost 100% of the time for anyone truly listening to the comparative results..

However, in respect to Shooshie, I would say that guys like him that delve so deeply into the finer aspects of MIDI and exhibit a true love for those aspects, and all of it;s possiblities are very much needed as these deep lovers of MIDI minutia are what will make MIDI better and better and guys like SHooshie and others are at the Vanguard of the future...

And I will benefit from their efforts by having better MIDI..

I do amazing work with MIDI, but don;t delve into the technology as deeply unless I absolutely have to...I just make it sound great with elbow grease and try not to get too deep under the hood..lol..Shooshie and the like can be found deep inside MIDI..and that is a compliment to them..

But copies of real world instruments are still only a substitute based off of financial limitations imposed upon all of us due to the commercial aspects of this industry and the lack of societal focus on art..

Though all this MIDI copying of the real world does present the opportunity to make new forms of music with the incredible technolgy of emulations making new forms of music...that IS valid!!! Rap and Hip Hop show that...what they did with drum emulation is fantastic and cannot be done by real drummers..and, drum machines and hip hop have influenced how drummers think and play..therefore, those MIDI uses truly deserve respect as art...there are not just copies any longer...

But for a copy the real thing aspect...it is not needed except for financial limition...so respect it for it's utility...but again, when you hear the real thing..it will make the copy sound thin...canned...etc..at least usually...

Unless of course, someone;s programming of MIDI will one day make the London Symphony orchestra play better..at which point, a MIDI emulation of a real orchestra will have become of true artistic use...otherwise..it;s just a copy when the original is fine in the first place...

None of this means someone using MIDI is not making a true work of art...I and many others do so every day...

But it does mean, at least for me, that I throw every one of my synths out the window if I had the real thing available 24-7...

In a heartbeat!

[Frodo]

But for a copy the real thing aspect...it is not needed except for financial limition...so respect it for it's utility...but again, when you hear the real thing..it will make the copy sound thin...canned...etc..at least usually...

Ah-- there rests the greater part of cable documentaries and news music! Yum, yum.

It will get better. It has to. Something tells me that discussions like this one are not as unique as they might have been and are becoming more widespread as real-turned-virtual musicians navigate the remaining hurdles of MIDI.

As we look at how some VI developers are addressing issues of better quality or greater affordability or greater efficiency with computer resources, it seems that genuine efforts *are* being made. They may not be there just yet, but it's nice to see things headed in the right direction.

When it all comes together, will we be too old to care about it any more? LOL!

[toodamnhip]

When it all comes together, will we be too old to care about it any more? LOL!

We mean when our kids are all wearing MIDI helmets and can only find musicians in picture books?...right next to the model T and Chevy Vega...

[Frodo]

We mean when our kids are all wearing MIDI helmets and can only find musicians in picture books?...right next to the model T and Chevy Vega...

Or when getting the holographic wi-fi USB chip brain implant is all the rage...

[Shooshie]

Well, I think we're just on different pages, toodamnhip. You keep talking about "copies" of the real thing. I consider my MIDI work to be very real. It's 1st generation, and not a copy of anything at all. If I'd never been a fine performer, I might not be so confident about what I'm saying, but I've played acoustic music right up there with the best, and yet I don't find myself feeling disadvantaged or disappointed when performing live on my WX-5. You talk about hard work and sweat to get what you want out of MIDI. That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid! :D:D I want my MIDI instruments to play what I want to hear, 1st time through. I want to do things in one take. Sure, I will splice in parts of another take if I think it makes a better recording, but that's been state-of-the-art in acoustic recording for decades. Ask Glenn Gould. (oh, you can't. He's not around anymore.)

Many years ago, a friend of mine and I bought two WX-7's (Yamaha's first MIDI Wind Controller) and began learning how to use them. The sounds themselves were nothing like real instruments, but what the WX-7 allowed us to DO with those sounds were far beyond the range and capabilities of acoustic instruments. We performed live concerts with what we called the "ACME Sinfonia," and on more than one occasion we brought tears to people's eyes. (No, no, no, not THAT kind of tears. You know... the kind of tears when people are moved by something expressive.) It was so much fun to play those, and what we were doing sounded so good on them, that returning to our acoustic instruments actually seemed small by comparison. So, we usually started on acoustic, then went to MIDI. Sometimes we even mixed them.

So, when you say that MIDI is not music, you defy my experience and actually insult my music!

Drawing Sonny R. into the picture does not prove your point in any way, shape, or form. I'm not Sonny Rollins whether I play WX-5 or Tenor Sax. But then, on the other hand, Sonny isn't Shooshie, either. Sonny most likely cannot play some of the things I've recorded, just as I can't play what he records. But I guarantee you that if Sonny and I sat down at a table and listened to each other's music, we'd walk away friends and hold a lot of respect for what the other can do. I mean, half of that is already true; I'm a big Sonny fan, and his bridge years inspired me to find my own place outdoors to practice at night for a long time. But Sonny is a very intelligent man with deep appreciation for art, and I have no doubt that he would like my acoustic recordings. For that matter, I think he'd like my MIDI recordings.

Brecker played a lot of MIDI stuff. Are you really going to say "Brecker ain't music?"

You're thinking backward; looking behind you. You're looking at a Nashville string ensemble and saying "I can't produce this exact sound in MIDI, so MIDI isn't the real thing." I'm looking forward. I'm saying "I love all the music that's come before us, but now I want to guide this electronic stuff into a future where it expands our possibilities without losing that essence that makes us human and musicians. And that's what I'm talking about.

Piano is wayyy ahead of the other instruments. There are already lots of MIDI pianos and MIDI piano recordings that you simply cannot identify as such. But the other instruments are catching up. And what is ultimately driving them is the demand from highly qualified musicians -- players of those instruments -- who want MIDI versions that respond like the real thing. And... we're getting what we've been asking for. The only reason that you don't have a Nashville sounding string ensemble that sounds like the real thing is that there has so far not been a demand for it. It will be here in time, if it's not already around somewhere.

Perhaps you're lamenting that MIDI lacks the atmosphere - the smokey bar, the glasses clinging and forks clanging, the chatter... that's all part of the musical experience, but I have performed with MIDI in such atmospheres. More times than I can remember to count. And what if Sonny Rollins pulled out a WX-5? Would you no longer consider it music? What if he recorded it in Digital Performer, then played it back with a variety of different instruments? Would they no longer be musical?

David, I'm not calling YOU absurd, but your statement that MIDI isn't music is most definitely absurd. There is no way out of that. You can't win this debate, man, because what you said is not true. You simply chose the wrong place to air that opinion. I like you personally, and think you rock as a recording engineer. Really, I do. But it just astonishes me that you could still believe that old 1980's saw that MIDI isn't "real" music. Bleagchhhh! It's simply absurd!

Shooshie

[Dave Connor]

I agree with Shoosh and indeed mentioned to Joe a while back that you become absorbed with the performances of those pieces and forget about anything else. I also mentioned to Joe that now and again certain sample characterisitics popped through now and then but we're pretty attuned to that as sample users.

The fact is that those piano pieces herald a new day in sample use no matter how you look at it. After all we all got into this to make music and music is winning the day in Joe's work.