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Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:03 am**

Hello nation,

It's become evidently clear I have to get my drum sound up to snuff. I am a real drummer & seems that almost all my clientele use real drummers & acoustic drums.

The problem I have is that my dedicated drum room is much too small to get a fabulous drum sound although it is decent if you like that '70's vibe. If I had the chance/funding to rebuild it over again the drum room would be 3x bigger. There is no chance to expand the room now.

One relatively inexpensive option might be to use triggers on the acoustic kit, pick up BFD2 for great sounds while still using the overs & hi-hat for cymbals. Does this sound like a good plan?

I think what I need to know is what's the easiest way to trigger BFD from acoustic drums?

My drum room jack panel consists of 12 XLR, 3 stereo 1/4", & MIDI jacks. (Headphone uses one of the 1/4" & overs & hat would only eat up 3 XLR)

Is anyone else using this method & if so what triggers are you using & to what success?

I've searched through some old posts & saw some members using ddrum triggers (some are 1/4 inch & some are XLR). Don't know if anyone uses the Roland stuff. Would I still need to use the Trigger plug in DP?

thanks, Joel

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:57 am**

I would suggest Drumagog(www.drumagog.com) if you're interested in interfacing directly with BFD. They make a version that's made especially for that. You'll find motu's trigger too slow. There's also aptrigga if you have your own samples and it's very cheap. I saw some video on BFD's site (http://www.fxpansion.com/index.php?page=10&tab=84) with Shawn Pelton, drummer from SNL, recording in his drum booth in his apartment and then adding ambiance samples with BFD to put his drums in a room. Very cool. I'll sometimes process my room mic through an altiverb room, like cello studios, to put the drums in a bigger space too. Have fun.

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:54 pm**

ponytrack wrote:Hello nation,

It's become evidently clear I have to get my drum sound up to snuff. I am a real drummer & seems that almost all my clientele use real drummers & acoustic drums.

The problem I have is that my dedicated drum room is much too small to get a fabulous drum sound although it is decent if you like that '70's vibe. If I had the chance/funding to rebuild it over again the drum room would be 3x bigger. There is no chance to expand the room now.

One relatively inexpensive option might be to use triggers on the acoustic kit, pick up BFD2 for great sounds while still using the overs & hi-hat for cymbals. Does this sound like a good plan?

I think what I need to know is what's the easiest way to trigger BFD from acoustic drums?

My drum room jack panel consists of 12 XLR, 3 stereo 1/4", & MIDI jacks. (Headphone uses one of the 1/4" & overs & hat would only eat up 3 XLR)

Is anyone else using this method & if so what triggers are you using & to what success?

I've searched through some old posts & saw some members using ddrum triggers (some are 1/4 inch & some are XLR). Don't know if anyone uses the Roland stuff. Would I still need to use the Trigger plug in DP?

thanks, Joel

I've never really got into the whole concept of drum replacement, which is not to diss it in any way- it just doesn't suit my playing style or sound I guess ... I can see how it works well in other contexts for other people.

Anyway the point is my experience is limited ... but I have used Roland acoustic triggers going though a V-drum brain in various configurations (and triggering BFD) ie

V-drums only
Acoustic kit with Roland acoustic triggers on drums only (keep real HH and cymbals)
Acoustic kit with Roland acoustic triggers on drums only + replace real HH and cymbals with V-cymbals and HH
Real cymbals and HH with V-drum pads (replacing acoustic drums)

.... and so on

The only reason I got into using acoustic triggers in the studio was that I use them for live on stage triggering from my acoustic kit, and of course once I had them and as I already had BFD I spent a while mucking about with set ups as above just to see what it sounded like.

The results (in terms of capturing the performance) of acoustic triggering seem to range from 'unpredictable' to 'so-so' ! But I play with a lot of dynamic range which is the worst for triggering. The more resonant the drums are and the harder you hit them (even when all mounted separately) the more crosstalk and false triggering you get etc (and I know how to set up these things having played my V-drums set for 10 years!). Of course you can tweak and tweak and get the best trigger set up possible but if you are recording different clients every day then they may all play very completely differently and make all your tweaks a waste of time!

But if your drummer is playing straight ahead rock and hitting everything full on most the time and with not too much embellishments/ expression/ dynamics then you can desensitize everything and get a much better result.

The other issue I get from your post is how to get the trigger leads - or single MIDI lead if the 'brain' is in the drum room - out into the control room.... it does all seem to favor using close micing and software triggering.....

So anyway like I said already, the only reason I've used triggers in the studio at all is that I have them for using live on stage (and they are fine for my needs there, which is kind of different to recording) but that is my experience FWIW!

Although I've only tried apptrigga briefly (and DP's trigger - yay!) my instinct tells me it'll probably be easier to get good results (ie capture the performance properly) using a software trigger on close miced drums. But maybe the kind of performance I am going after is not possible to capture?! I mean as much as I love BFD and V-drums, zendrums and so on (and I do!) - I do see them all as running parallel to real drums rather than overlapping with them ..... I know this is not a very helpful post!

I find with BFD, although I have to play very differently on a V-drums kit compared to an acoustic kit - it's actually easier to mimic the sound of playing a real kit on a V- drums because I am playing (monitoring) the sound of the BFD kit as I play it and adjust playing dynamics instinctively. So I tend to keep the two worlds completely separate now - V-drums (or zendrum) with BFD on one side and acoustic kit and mics on the other ..... if I want a proper decent drum sound I do need to take my kit to another studio, though - so I do sympathize! .... LOL!

Anyway, I might get drumagog one day when it supports BFD2 (which I think it will soon if it doesn't already) just to see how well it works - but these are my (rambling) thoughts on acoustic triggers FWIW.

Roland have brought out a new range of triggers though - they might be slightly better!

Hope it works out!

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:38 pm**

Thanks for the replies Daveyboy & Spikey Horse.

I remember back to the days when I had a set of Simmons drums 'cause it was all the rage & dove briefly into using those as triggers on an Ensoniq Mirage sampler using the MIDI outputs from the SDS9 brain. I dug that old puppy out of the closet just to take a stab at it again a few days ago but the only thing that was working was the kick drum input. This is how I got reinvigorated on this path again. Besides the fact it's not that much fun playing those old hubcaps & I also remember the faulty triggering happening quite a bit.

Now I don't mind spending some coin on something solid but I would have thought that 25 years of technology would have brought a much more stable platform than 'unpredictable' to 'so-so' as Spikey Horse has reported. I understand playing style has a lot to do with it but a drummer needs to be able to count on ruffs & rolls, don't we?

I welcome anyone else with any up-to-date triggering equipment to whatever minimal success to post their experience & shine some serious light on this less than glamorous subject.

thanks again, Joel

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:49 pm**

Don't get me wrong, acoustic triggers do work - and you can get ruffs, rolls, flams ... the snare triggers even send a different MIDI note for rimshots ..... my 'so-so' comment might sound quite harsh, but if I said they 'work well' I'd feel I was lying ... and if they don't 'work well' then that's pretty so -so for something as important as drum recording! ... speaking as a drummer!

I guess what gets me with them (at least if you're playing more than 'moderately expressively') is that what you play is not quite what you get ... whereas with V-drums what you play is what you get .... does that make sense?! .....

But a crisp, tight, damped, non-resonant drum kit might work a lot better than my (opposite of all those) kit .... I found the toms the worst (and I was using the much better snare triggers on the toms too).

I'm just worried you might buy some triggers and a brain (very approx $70 per trigger + $500 for a brain? ) rewire your drum room and then end up disappointed with the results or the time needed to achieve satisfactory results (tweaking trigger settings as well editing/cleaning up the MIDI afterwards) .. and that's just in terms of capturing the performance not the sound!

That's why I'm thinking maybe experiment with the software only methods first before you try triggers .....

But I'm not saying it can't be done .... or won't work for you/your clients .........

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:35 pm**

Go for BFD2 and a Hart Dynamics Kit with the Alesis Trigger I/O.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:12 am**

Here is my $.02 for what it is worth. I do a lot of on-the-spot and live recording and cutting fast-and-dirty demos for various bands in their practice spaces, so I am very familiar with trying to milk the best drums possible in tough situations.

What I do is this: mic up the drums as best I can (after having the drummer buy a new set of heads and allowing ME to put them on and tune them) paying careful attention to the overheads and toms, and them use cheapo piezo triggers taped to the shells.

BUT... I don't send the triggers to a MIDI unit, rather I record them as audio tracks, so that I have the "tick" and then use that for a few things:

#1 is to use to trigger samples if need be. In my experience, it has been much more accurate in terms of timing and dynamics to trigger off that audio than MIDI.

#2 Is that I will use them to sidechain gates to keep the sound of the crap room and the bleed from slapback off low ceilings OUT of the audio. Basically that is a last line of defence to kill any trace of a bad room in the audio. Usually I will bump them foreward a number of milliseconds to snap the gates so that i don't lose any attack, and then I'll automate the decays to balance out getting as much of the sustain and resonance that I can without letting in too much room.

I have tried DDrum red head triggers and Roland head triggers, but I have had far fewer issues with the cheapo shell triggers when used in this way, plus you don't get tuning issues and drummers complaining about the feel.

in terms of natural sounding sampled drums, Drumagog is the best I have found for fast fills, flams and it is pretty much the only replacer that handles 220-280+BPM blast beats if you ever have to do a death metal band (I have done a lot of those). For steady rock stuff, I have found that most are OK and even the MOTU Model 12 works fine if you don't mind doing some editing on the faster bits.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:07 am**

Look here:
http://www.osc.drum-tec.de/ubs-td12-pro ... p-516.html

It's another option.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:31 am**

Spikey Horse wrote:
I guess what gets me with them (at least if you're playing more than 'moderately expressively') is that what you play is not quite what you get ... whereas with V-drums what you play is what you get .... does that make sense?! .....

Yes it does!

But a crisp, tight, damped, non-resonant drum kit might work a lot better than my (opposite of all those) kit .... I found the toms the worst (and I was using the much better snare triggers on the toms too).

Now this is good intel!

I'm just worried you might buy some triggers and a brain (very approx $70 per trigger + $500 for a brain? ) rewire your drum room and then end up disappointed with the results or the time needed to achieve satisfactory results (tweaking trigger settings as well editing/cleaning up the MIDI afterwards) .. and that's just in terms of capturing the performance not the sound!

That's why I'm thinking maybe experiment with the software only methods first before you try triggers .....

And so I shall

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:44 am**

aletheian-alex wrote:Here is my $.02 for what it is worth. I do a lot of on-the-spot and live recording and cutting fast-and-dirty demos for various bands in their practice spaces, so I am very familiar with trying to milk the best drums possible in tough situations.

What I do is this: mic up the drums as best I can (after having the drummer buy a new set of heads and allowing ME to put them on and tune them) paying careful attention to the overheads and toms, and them use cheapo piezo triggers taped to the shells.

What have you found to be the best location? Near top rim? Middle of shell? Over port hole? Or it doesn't matter at all?

BUT... I don't send the triggers to a MIDI unit, rather I record them as audio tracks, so that I have the "tick" and then use that for a few things:

#1 is to use to trigger samples if need be. In my experience, it has been much more accurate in terms of timing and dynamics to trigger off that audio than MIDI.

Was this done using your Drumagog program?

#2 Is that I will use them to sidechain gates to keep the sound of the crap room and the bleed from slapback off low ceilings OUT of the audio. Basically that is a last line of defence to kill any trace of a bad room in the audio. Usually I will bump them foreward a number of milliseconds to snap the gates so that i don't lose any attack, and then I'll automate the decays to balance out getting as much of the sustain and resonance that I can without letting in too much room.

I have tried DDrum red head triggers and Roland head triggers, but I have had far fewer issues with the cheapo shell triggers when used in this way, plus you don't get tuning issues and drummers complaining about the feel.

Are we talking cheapo piezo mics or something designed for drums specifically?

in terms of natural sounding sampled drums, Drumagog is the best I have found for fast fills, flams and it is pretty much the only replacer that handles 220-280+BPM blast beats if you ever have to do a death metal band (I have done a lot of those). For steady rock stuff, I have found that most are OK and even the MOTU Model 12 works fine if you don't mind doing some editing on the faster bits.

Thanks for the nitty gritty

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:04 am**

Hi Joel,
Just to offer another approach, have you considered using the sounds you have rather than replacing them. I've recorded drums in a small space and used carefully selected reverb to make them sound huge. Sure it's not the same as recording in a castle, but with careful mic placement and some good reverb, it can be quite convincing.

Phil

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:50 am**

Phil O wrote:Hi Joel,
Just to offer another approach, have you considered using the sounds you have rather than replacing them. I've recorded drums in a small space and used carefully selected reverb to make them sound huge. Sure it's not the same as recording in a castle, but with careful mic placement and some good reverb, it can be quite convincing.

Phil

Thanks for the input Phil. This is what I normally do. However, I only have 1 set of drums & sometimes the need for a different kick, snare or a completely different kit is going to sound like it fits the song quite a bit better.

On the other hand I know it's going to open up that "auditioning sounds" can o' worms & we all know what kind of productivity that can lead to.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:37 pm**

I realize I'm getting a little off topic here, but what kind of heads are you using? I've used Remo's for many years, but after hearing a kit recently outfitted with Aquarians, I'm considering ordering some the next time I re-head my kit. Don't forget how variable the sound can be simply by changing head styles. A simple change from Ambassador to Diplomat on a snare top, for example, can make it sound like a whole new drum. Also I got some Yamaha stainless steel snares for my Ludwig hand hammered snare drum...awesome combination!

Phil

Posted: **Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:43 am**

ponytrack wrote:
aletheian-alex wrote:Here is my $.02 for what it is worth. I do a lot of on-the-spot and live recording and cutting fast-and-dirty demos for various bands in their practice spaces, so I am very familiar with trying to milk the best drums possible in tough situations.

What I do is this: mic up the drums as best I can (after having the drummer buy a new set of heads and allowing ME to put them on and tune them) paying careful attention to the overheads and toms, and them use cheapo piezo triggers taped to the shells.

1)What have you found to be the best location? Near top rim? Middle of shell? Over port hole? Or it doesn't matter at all?

BUT... I don't send the triggers to a MIDI unit, rather I record them as audio tracks, so that I have the "tick" and then use that for a few things:

#1 is to use to trigger samples if need be. In my experience, it has been much more accurate in terms of timing and dynamics to trigger off that audio than MIDI.

2) Was this done using your Drumagog program?

#2 Is that I will use them to sidechain gates to keep the sound of the crap room and the bleed from slapback off low ceilings OUT of the audio. Basically that is a last line of defence to kill any trace of a bad room in the audio. Usually I will bump them foreward a number of milliseconds to snap the gates so that i don't lose any attack, and then I'll automate the decays to balance out getting as much of the sustain and resonance that I can without letting in too much room.

I have tried DDrum red head triggers and Roland head triggers, but I have had far fewer issues with the cheapo shell triggers when used in this way, plus you don't get tuning issues and drummers complaining about the feel.

3) Are we talking cheapo piezo mics or something designed for drums specifically?

in terms of natural sounding sampled drums, Drumagog is the best I have found for fast fills, flams and it is pretty much the only replacer that handles 220-280+BPM blast beats if you ever have to do a death metal band (I have done a lot of those). For steady rock stuff, I have found that most are OK and even the MOTU Model 12 works fine if you don't mind doing some editing on the faster bits.
Thanks for the nitty gritty

1) Depends... but I usually start in the middle and work up toward the head or ON the head as needed.

2) Yes, for a while... I need to buy an upgrade and it has not been high on the priority list, so I have been using a smattering of various freeware and demo plugs like apTrigga... which is about 75% as good as Drumagog at a fraction of the price. It is just not quite as natural on fast stuff.

3) At first I made my own, but you can get a set of Pintech or Pulse triggers really cheap and experiment with shell and head triggering. Sometimes a clamp-on head trigger works better on the snare, sometimes not... depends on the drummer and the style.

Posted: **Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:45 am**

ponytrack wrote:Hello nation,

It's become evidently clear I have to get my drum sound up to snuff. I am a real drummer & seems that almost all my clientele use real drummers & acoustic drums.

The problem I have is that my dedicated drum room is much too small to get a fabulous drum sound although it is decent if you like that '70's vibe. If I had the chance/funding to rebuild it over again the drum room would be 3x bigger. There is no chance to expand the room now.

One relatively inexpensive option might be to use triggers on the acoustic kit, pick up BFD2 for great sounds while still using the overs & hi-hat for cymbals. Does this sound like a good plan?

I think what I need to know is what's the easiest way to trigger BFD from acoustic drums?

My drum room jack panel consists of 12 XLR, 3 stereo 1/4", & MIDI jacks. (Headphone uses one of the 1/4" & overs & hat would only eat up 3 XLR)

Is anyone else using this method & if so what triggers are you using & to what success?

I've searched through some old posts & saw some members using ddrum triggers (some are 1/4 inch & some are XLR). Don't know if anyone uses the Roland stuff. Would I still need to use the Trigger plug in DP?

thanks, Joel

Hi Joel

I would persevere with the drum booth and the real drums mate.

I know it's a ball ache but not compared to triggering. There are so many compromises with triggering that by the time you finished you've lost all the feel. Give me a baggy old REAL kit any day.

I am fortunate enought to have a really nice drum booth and kit, BUT believe me, it's all in THE HEADS!, THE TUNING!, THE MIC PLACEMENT! ...... oh and the drummer. Don't fool yourself into thinking you have to high quality equipment. Sure it helps but without the aformentioned you'll still get a crap sound. Oh and the drummer? Give me Mr Accurate and Consistent over Mr Flash Harry EVERYTIME.

The trick is persistence, take a drum at a time move it away from the rest of the kit so that you hear it on it's own. Damp one skin while you tuning the other listen to the pitch at each lug position. EXPERIMENT that's the key. Try different skins

It won't happen over night but you'll get there and you'll learn a "truckload" on the way.

Also you have one great advantage YOU"RE A DRUMMER

I've heard some great results on crap gear but the guys either knew what he was doing or got lucky.

Equally (trust me) I've heard some howlers from some really nnice studios where they obviously recorded it on the graveyard shift with an inexperienced engineer.

Check out youtube for tuning drums.

http://www.ten21.biz

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