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ESATA drive or FW??

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:16 pm
by OTREVOR
:?: Hello.

I need to buy a eSATA drive, a case for the drive (preferably that
holds 2 HDs), and a PCI card for my PPC G5 dual.
This disk will be for streaming samples heavily (Ivory, EWQLSO, etc)

1.- Could you please recommend me great products for each of these 3
components, please?

2.- So, how important would it be for it to have 32 MB of cache?
2a.- Should I get one that has more that 32 MB cache?

3.- Do you know of a case that can hold 2 HDs? If so, will they share
the SAME bus, or would they have independent ones?

4.- And lastly, if I get a case that has eSATA and Firewire 800,
could I get away by using the FW connection instead of the eSATA, so
I don't have to buy the PCI card for the Mac?

5.- I know eSATA is faster than FW 800, but would it run fine if I
choose the latter connection?

If you have links, and if you advise me regarding these 3 components
I need, I will really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:34 pm
by gearboy
I am also interested in this.

I will tell you this, if you are running a FW400 interface on your PPC and you plug a FW800 drive into the G5's FW800 port, the most you will get out of it is FW400 speeds.

So, with that said, I would load a card in the back of the PPC that has eSATA and/or FW800 and go with a drive case that does one of the other or both. you'll get a lot more out of your samples this way.

Jeff

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:45 pm
by Dwetmaster
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... dwetmaster


this is a thread on hard and esata. I have one that I bought @ tigerdirect.
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3310
Always been working great...

Re: ESATA drive or FW??

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:45 pm
by Aramis
The box
http://www.satasite.com/4-bay-raid-enclosure.htm

The card
http://www.satasite.com/esata-sata-ii-4-port-raid.htm

and any good eSata drives ....


Aramis




OTREVOR wrote::?: Hello.

I need to buy a eSATA drive, a case for the drive (preferably that
holds 2 HDs), and a PCI card for my PPC G5 dual.
This disk will be for streaming samples heavily (Ivory, EWQLSO, etc)

1.- Could you please recommend me great products for each of these 3
components, please?

2.- So, how important would it be for it to have 32 MB of cache?
2a.- Should I get one that has more that 32 MB cache?

3.- Do you know of a case that can hold 2 HDs? If so, will they share
the SAME bus, or would they have independent ones?

4.- And lastly, if I get a case that has eSATA and Firewire 800,
could I get away by using the FW connection instead of the eSATA, so
I don't have to buy the PCI card for the Mac?

5.- I know eSATA is faster than FW 800, but would it run fine if I
choose the latter connection?

If you have links, and if you advise me regarding these 3 components
I need, I will really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

Re: ESATA drive or FW??

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:59 pm
by Frodo
OTREVOR wrote::?: Hello.

I need to buy a eSATA drive, a case for the drive (preferably that
holds 2 HDs), and a PCI card for my PPC G5 dual.
This disk will be for streaming samples heavily (Ivory, EWQLSO, etc)
You're singing my song, OTREVOR!
OTREVOR wrote: 1.- Could you please recommend me great products for each of these 3
components, please?
Prices, performance, and options vary (as you know). G-Tech has some great eSATA drives. They cost a little more, but they are highly rated. Tons of options with these-- browse through the site for drives and enclosure configs-- eSATA I, eSATA II, and FW.

Start here:
http://www.g-technology.com/Products/G-DRIVEQ.cfm

Read on for more options:
OTREVOR wrote: 2.- So, how important would it be for it to have 32 MB of cache?
2a.- Should I get one that has more that 32 MB cache?
In some cases, 32 MB would have no more impact than 4 or 8 MB. I know that sounds controversial, but much depends upon the "requested data" from the plugin. Often, what a plugin would have to pre-load into a cache exceeds the drive cache size, and OSX kicks in to make up the difference. For example, VSL's requested data is often over 60MB, and EWQLSO's can be as well. This is where OSX's virtual memory kicks in, so in these instances cache size can be a moot point.

A 32MB cache may be put to good use for streaming soundbites, but for virtual instruments you would have to do some calculations to determine just how much sample data you are using on any given project and subsequently how much "requested data" is required. Generally speaking, Macs have that wonderful L2 cache system, so at the end of the day I don't think you *really* need to worry about too much.

I've yet to see drive caches larger thann 32MB as this size is a pretty recent update as a standard feature.
OTREVOR wrote: 3.- Do you know of a case that can hold 2 HDs? If so, will they share
the SAME bus, or would they have independent ones?
You can get enclosures that hold 1-5 drives. For my first eSATA, here's the enclosure I got which is holding two WD Raptor 10k drives. It's pretty quiet, too, and came at the recommendation of member HCMarkus.

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20 ... ESATATBEK/

Scan the OWC site (eshop.macsales) for other enclosure options. Lots of choices available.

For my second venture into eSATA, I went with a 5-drive RAID (5 x WD 7200s) for 1.25TB, and came at the recommendation of member chrispick. Temp control and alarm, backlit digital LCD-- great box!

http://www.satasite.com/5-bay-esata-por ... losure.htm
OTREVOR wrote: 4.- And lastly, if I get a case that has eSATA and Firewire 800,
could I get away by using the FW connection instead of the eSATA, so
I don't have to buy the PCI card for the Mac?
Nope. You MUST have a PCI host card no matter what if you are going external and want to avoid using the Mac's single FW bus (the same bus for all 400/800 ports). I went with Sonnet because they are reliable, reputable, and their cards offered options to run both RAID as well as individual drives simultaneously. Not all cards offer this option. There may be other companies, but I found no reason to look elsewhere with the Sonnet card at the helm.
OTREVOR wrote: 5.- I know eSATA is faster than FW 800, but would it run fine if I
choose the latter connection?
This is a tough one. The short answer is yes-- FW 800 will work fine. But, you're talking about running two of the most demanding VIs on the market. There will be limits, so why not give these VIs the best opportunty to put out for you?

If eSATA is on your list, I say go for it-- and I would go further to recommend eSATA II for the card and connectors.

I would recommend installing EWQLSO on two hard drives for better performance. 7200 is fine, although Gold will fit on a Raptor and give you great performance.

Ivory seems to work much better on a 10k drive, but I've run it from a 7200 with some extra care in not squandering voices and turning off its ambience in favor of using UAD-1, Altiverb, Duende and other fx which are better anyway.

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:00 pm
by Frodo
Well, Aramis saves the day!

Re: ESATA drive or FW??

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:09 pm
by chrispick
Frodo wrote:For my second venture into eSATA, I went with a 5-drive RAID (5 x WD 7200s) for 1.25TB, and came at the recommendation of member chrispick. Temp control and alarm, backlit digital LCD-- great box!
I actually had problems with that enclosure conking out on me without notice. It didn't play well with the eSATA card I bought (firmware incompatibilities, I think).

Switched it for this...

http://www.satasite.com/sonnet-fusion-500p.htm

Which works perfectly with this...

http://www.satasite.com/sonnet-tempo-sata-e4p.htm

This combo rocks for me.

Re: ESATA drive or FW??

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:23 pm
by Frodo
chrispick wrote:
Frodo wrote:For my second venture into eSATA, I went with a 5-drive RAID (5 x WD 7200s) for 1.25TB, and came at the recommendation of member chrispick. Temp control and alarm, backlit digital LCD-- great box!
I actually had problems with that enclosure conking out on me without notice. It didn't play well with the eSATA card I bought (fireware incompatibilities, I think).

Switched it for this...

http://www.satasite.com/sonnet-fusion-500p.htm

Which works perfectly with this...

http://www.satasite.com/sonnet-tempo-sata-e4p.htm

This combo rocks for me.
Interesting, Colonel. Mine is still going strong, but you can't go too far wrong with matched Sonnet components, imho.

By the end of the year, I'll be outfitting my MacPro with eSATA II. This could have easily been the best hardware update I could have ever done.

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:39 pm
by OTREVOR
gearboy wrote:I am also interested in this.

I will tell you this, if you are running a FW400 interface on your PPC and you plug a FW800 drive into the G5's FW800 port, the most you will get out of it is FW400 speeds.

Jeff
May I ask WHY this is? Is it because of some issue with the G5?
I ask because, in theory, my G5 does have a FW800 port, so why would it run that FW disk at 400 speed? It would be the ONLY FW thing I‘d be running...


To all who have replied, thank you so much. I‘m checking all those links :D

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:46 pm
by Aramis
Here is my explanation ,
Inside the G5 , the chip that is interfacing FW800 and FW400 is unique , meaning if you got a 400 drive and a 800 drive accessed at the same time that chip become a bottleneck ....
So if you have only a FW800 drive and nothing else , you will get all the speed .
That is why they recommand to install a pci FW800 interface .
This way , you are certain that pci slot is giving you the full bandwidth desired .


Aramis
OTREVOR wrote:
gearboy wrote:I am also interested in this.

I will tell you this, if you are running a FW400 interface on your PPC and you plug a FW800 drive into the G5's FW800 port, the most you will get out of it is FW400 speeds.

Jeff
May I ask WHY this is? Is it because of some issue with the G5?
I ask because, in theory, my G5 does have a FW800 port, so why would it run that FW disk at 400 speed? It would be the ONLY FW thing I‘d be running...


To all who have replied, thank you so much. I‘m checking all those links :D

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:50 pm
by Aramis
Aramis wrote:Here is my explanation ,
Inside the G5 , the chip that is interfacing FW800 and FW400 is unique , meaning if you got a 400 drive and a 800 drive accessed at the same time that chip become a bottleneck ....
So if you have only a FW800 drive and nothing else , you will get all the speed .
That is why they recommand to install a pci FW800 interface .
This way , you are certain that pci slot is giving you the full bandwidth desired .
See the chip at the low right corner on this page .

http://web.mac.com/marceljacques1/Marce ... nelle.html

Aramis
OTREVOR wrote:
gearboy wrote:I am also interested in this.

I will tell you this, if you are running a FW400 interface on your PPC and you plug a FW800 drive into the G5's FW800 port, the most you will get out of it is FW400 speeds.

Jeff
May I ask WHY this is? Is it because of some issue with the G5?
I ask because, in theory, my G5 does have a FW800 port, so why would it run that FW disk at 400 speed? It would be the ONLY FW thing I‘d be running...


To all who have replied, thank you so much. I‘m checking all those links :D

Re: ESATA drive or FW??

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:51 pm
by chrispick
Frodo wrote:Interesting, Colonel. Mine is still going strong, but you can't go too far wrong with matched Sonnet components, imho.
Yeah, they play nice. Consistently.

BTW, I fixed a typo above to now read "firmware" rather that "fireware" to alleviate any confusion (given we're talking eSATA vs. firewire here).

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:56 pm
by Frodo
Aramis wrote:Here is my explanation ,
Inside the G5 , the chip that is interfacing FW800 and FW400 is unique , meaning if you got a 400 drive and a 800 drive accessed at the same time that chip become a bottleneck ....
So if you have only a FW800 drive and nothing else , you will get all the speed .
That is why they recommand to install a pci FW800 interface .
This way , you are certain that pci slot is giving you the full bandwidth desired .


Aramis
Aramis is right. Much of the reason for this bottlenecking is that there is one single firewire BUS for all ports which funnel into it and compete for bandwidth. This is true even on the MacPros. As with any combo of devices, it only goes as fast as its slowest component.

This was the very reason why I set firewire drives aside in favor of eSATA. While I do have a Duende running off the firewire port, it's the only firewire device connected. In fact, it won't even mount if there are any other devices connected to any of the computer's firewire ports.

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:15 pm
by bjornln
I don't know....

Is it really that much data you shuffle that you need the throughput of SATA ?
I really think it's seektime that is the the big problem..
Something you can't solve with SATA.

If I'd design a system for sample-playback, I would:
Maximize the number of posible current reads = more drives (and spread out the data, depending on what library you use the most)
SATA, FW800,SCSI320 or if I can afford it FC (iSCSI is a possibillity, but I haven't tried it. IF I test it, it would be on it's own 1GBit ethernet segment to minimize latency)
Use JBOD or RAID (the big thing is.. no synchronized read/write heads)

One thing that really interests me right now are the new Flash drives with ATA or SATA or SCSI320 interfaces.
One drive (read), c:a 140 GB, throughput 40 to 60 MB /s.
Seektime an order of magnitude LOWER than the current fastest harddrives ! ! ! !
The write speed is much, much slower, but if I'm only doing sample playback (=reads) who cares...



/B

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:23 pm
by Aramis
Well ,
I do believe in eSata raid system for big sample users with a lot of tracks ....because I think you can get until 200 MB/s with such a thing .
But FW800 speed is enough for a normal user I would say ...

Aramis
bjornln wrote:I don't know....

Is it really that much data you shuffle that you need the throughput of SATA ?
I really think it's seektime that is the the big problem..
Something you can't solve with SATA.

If I'd design a system for sample-playback, I would:
Maximize the number of posible current reads = more drives (and spread out the data, depending on what library you use the most)
SATA, FW800,SCSI320 or if I can afford it FC (iSCSI is a possibillity, but I haven't tried it. IF I test it, it would be on it's own 1GBit ethernet segment to minimize latency)
Use JBOD or RAID (the big thing is.. no synchronized read/write heads)

One thing that really interests me right now are the new Flash drives with ATA or SATA or SCSI320 interfaces.
One drive (read), c:a 140 GB, throughput 40 to 60 MB /s.
Seektime an order of magnitude LOWER than the current fastest harddrives ! ! ! !
The write speed is much, much slower, but if I'm only doing sample playback (=reads) who cares...



/B