Mixing tips for V Drums / do's and dont's ???

[RMC206]

I just heard a friends project done with Roland V drums and the drum mix was dull on the low end sibilant on the top. The snare thuded instead of cracked. I've heard other mixes and examples that sounded excellent. Any advice, do's or don't? I'm about to begin the mix of a year long project with V drums.

[monkey man]

I might sit this one out with you, RMC206, as I too am curious.

The only ideas I've had so far on this are to turn all the effects including compression, ambience and EQ off and use decent plugs instead.
Call me old fashioned, but I've always seen FX as add-ons to sound generators due to having owned synths from way back.
Typically, as the years have rolled on manufacturers have invested progressively more of their time and money in their FX engines and increased DSP allocations, but for mine at least, they're still add-ons.

If the V-Drums have already been recorded as audio, well, this thought's redundant.
If you've the MIDI data, much can be done, including carefully selecting and editing kit components, thus reducing the need for corrective EQ.

This is all monkey theory (OK, dreamin'!) at this point, but I had to try to offer something.
Thank you in advance for having me, RMC206.

[RMC206]

I agree, good samples and the engineer's work is done. The drummer that I'm working with has provided excellent tones with seperate ambience track etc. When I solo them, they sound totally legit. I just don't want to lose any of that quality, so my plan is to apply minimal treatment other than to fit it in with the mix. I'm interested in other peoples mis-steps, so that I can avoid them. Others previous tweaks have been to add a little Sans amp distortion to the kick and snare somewhat like an exciter, others have applied compression to the ambient track, gated reverb on the snare synced with the song tempo. Compression seems to kill the Vdrum snare.

[Spikey Horse]

(edit - I didn't refresh and missed your reply above this .. sems like you're happy with your Vdrum sounds - but here's what I wrote anyway... )

I have to say, although I love my v drums to bits, the on board modeled acoustic samples (as opposed to the 808, 909 etc sounds) really do not stand up against some of the more modern true sample based drum VI's like BFD. Which V-drums brain are you using? I have a TD-8, I'm sure the TD-20 has better on board than mine (if that's what you're using) but still I'd say both are in the same ball park compared to, say, BFD samples.......

If this is a big project (you say a year) - and if you have the MIDI and/or the chance to rerecord performances to get it and if you 're happy tweaking MIDI drum performances - and if replicating a decent 'real acoustic kit' is a major objective I would seriously consider BFD + one of the more recent BFD add on sample packs if you can afford it.

But having said all that, the on board sounds can be perfectly acceptable depending on the drum sound/ genre/ mix you are trying to achieve. Before I started using BFD I used to get some great sounds by re amping bits of the kit through guitar amps, fx pedals .. as well as more standard compressors and reverbs.

So anyway I've said my bit about BFD If using Vdrums sounds I'd say first step is to get the drum brain in the studio and, like Monkey Man suggests, turn off all the on board reverb and eq and compressors (do TD20's have compression?) and start getting a good sound by choosing the drum patches and choosing head/ shell/ dampening and tuning settings.... and do all of this listening to it through studio monitors - so often Vdrums users will make all their on board settings to sound good through headphones or a practice amp (or bass cab or whatever) or a PA system ... great for practicing or playing live but rubbish for recording! ..... if that's the case definitely start building a new kit+settings from scratch listening through studio monitors!!! .... preferably with option of checking against bass/guitars too.

Not sure if any of that of any help .... good luck!

[monkey man]

Spot on, RMC.

You seem to be thinking the same way I do about this.

Funny you should mention the compression, 'cause that's what had me thinking for years that the V-Sound(!) sucked, little did I realise the in-built comp was the problem.
I must admit I'm over-sensitive to that sound, as it all started with Roland's Drum&Bass SRX card and the Drum&Bass rack module - every mix I heard that employed the thing (mid to late '90s) seemed to bury the snare in said compression, having a squishy, wimpy effect on the snare especially, and somehow removing all semblance of punch.

I wonder if rentadrummer will chime in here.
If he doesn't show, I'll notify him of the thread and request his presence.
He's still experimenting with getting the most out of his TD-20, but seems to be happier than ever with the results he can now achieve.

Here... have a lightly roasted banana, RMC; you might as well join the farty, um, party.
Oops... that's right - it's your party, and I'll cry if I want to.

[monkey man]

Hey Spikey!

Yes, the TD-20 has compression, an enhanced ambience algorithm, so-called "mastering effects" and God knows what else, but I firmly believe in not trusting non-dedicated plug or hardware effects.

Have a listen to a TD-20; I think you may be pleasantly surprised.
For mine, it comes more than close enought to BFD, is always "compatible" and has zero latency.
You've just gotta turn dem FX off and imagine it wit' pro ambiences and 'verbs, IMHO.

[RMC206]

The drummer is using a TD20. I have to say, his Roland kit sounds better than any I've heard. I do have the MIDI info as well, in case I want to pull up a different sample. ...as Einstien said "Time is money" I'm hiring someone to mix and I want to bring in "good to go" premix material. Another trick I've read about ... using only the ambience track in the mix, get it as beautiful as you can with EQ and compression, then bring up the audio of the drum tracks underneath to taste.

[monkey man]

Ripper. TD-20. Bonza, mate.

The fact that you have MIDI data is a real bonus too, as per my previous point.
It's pushin' 5:00AM here, and I ain't even had dinner yet; does that make it brekkie?
If I ever wake up tomorrow, I'll be back; this could be (and already is) a fruitful discussion.

Speaking of fruit... Spikey, I believe you haven't had any lightly fried banana yet; hope it's not my cooking.

[rentadrummer]

Spot on, RMC.

You seem to be thinking the same way I do about this.

Funny you should mention the compression, 'cause that's what had me thinking for years that the V-Sound(!) sucked, little did I realise the in-built comp was the problem.
I must admit I'm over-sensitive to that sound, as it all started with Roland's Drum&Bass SRX card and the Drum&Bass rack module - every mix I heard that employed the thing (mid to late '90s) seemed to bury the snare in said compression, having a squishy, wimpy effect on the snare especially, and somehow removing all semblance of punch.

I wonder if rentadrummer will chime in here.
If he doesn't show, I'll notify him of the thread and request his presence.
He's still experimenting with getting the most out of his TD-20, but seems to be happier than ever with the results he can now achieve.

You called?

I use a TD-20, and add just a little on-board compression to the snare, kick and toms when I record the audio from the MIDI seqence. I've always done it that way because I think they sound better, but must admit that I haven't spent that much time working with dry sounds using DP's compressors after the fact. I also record a separate snare ambience track, and one for all the toms as well. The ambience seems to beef up the sound when mixed in sparingly.

I've also recently learned that if the MIDI sequence is recorded with more velocity on the toms, they sound better. That's not saying much since I think they are the weakest part of the TD-20 sound, although they're not bad in certain mixes.

I really think that I could get much better sounds if I were able to work with a good engineer, whch I am anything but, and would like the opportunity to compare tracks recorded different ways. Maybe some day....

[Spikey Horse]

Hi rentadrummer - just curious, are the TD 20 sounds very different to my old TD-8? (I hope I didn't sound overly harsh on V-drums anyway).

Monkey Man - No I've never tried fried banana, I didn't get fried when I tried smoking one either (a long time ago). But I must stop frittering away my time on such talk ...

[rentadrummer]

Hi rentadrummer - just curious, are the TD 20 sounds very different to my old TD-8? (I hope I didn't sound overly harsh on V-drums anyway).

Not harsh at all. I have a love/hate relationship with them myself, but that's all I'm able to use for recording, so I've tried to make the best of it. I often think about adding something like BFD or DFHS, but then I'd have to join another forum to learn how to use them and wouldn't have any time left for drumming. Supposedly, one of these years there will be an expansion card released for the TD-20, but there's no telling when, or what features and sounds it will add.

I've only played through a TD-8 a few times and it was several years ago before I knew much about editing the sounds. From what I remember the sounds are very different. One big advantage of the TD-20 is the number of outs that are available - 8 individual outs, two Master Outs that can be used as 2 mono outs or 1 stereo out, plus S/PIDF. It still takes me several passes to record the audio from the MIDI sequence, but I record everything on its own track, including 2 ambience tracks.

[monkey man]

You called?

Nice one, Ron; thanks for showing.

Supposedly, one of these years there will be an expansion card released for the TD-20, but there's no telling when, or what features and sounds it will add.

I sure hope they release this one day well before than an updated unit.
It wouldn't otherwise be fair on all those drummers who traded in their houses for the TD-20.

Hi rentadrummer - just curious, are the TD 20 sounds very different to my old TD-8? (I hope I didn't sound overly harsh on V-drums anyway).

I've only played through a TD-8 a few times and it was several years ago before I knew much about editing the sounds. From what I remember the sounds are very different.

I've heard it said that the TD-20's in a different league.

Monkey Man - No I've never tried fried banana, I didn't get fried when I tried smoking one either (a long time ago). But I must stop frittering away my time on such talk ...

Ha! I hope you realised it was the dried peels you're supposed to burn.
It's apparently an old prison trick.

[kgdrum]

i always take off the compression and in most cases the effects as well.prior to the td20 I now have I had the td10.the sounds are not radically different imo but the improved selection of outputs as well as the ability to use the newer cymbal pads make the td20 a very good way to make nice tracks w/ an edrum kit.the other thing i will suggest is dive into the trigger parameters(basic and advanced)getting the right feel and opening up the dynamic range beyond the stock settings will make a huge difference also. I think getting the pads to respond to the way you play is just as important as the sounds.it's the playability and feel that makes the Vdrums so cool
KG

[monkey man]

i always take off the compression and in most cases the effects as well.prior to the td20 I now have I had the td10.the sounds are not radically different imo but the improved selection of outputs as well as the ability to use the newer cymbal pads make the td20 a very good way to make nice tracks w/ an edrum kit.the other thing i will suggest is dive into the trigger parameters(basic and advanced)getting the right feel and opening up the dynamic range beyond the stock settings will make a huge difference also. I think getting the pads to respond to the way you play is just as important as the sounds.it's the playability and feel that makes the Vdrums so cool
KG

Geez, KG, you're correct. Dang.
I'll be triggering mine from a crappy old '80s keyboard.

Am I correct in assuming that MIDI input from the, well, MIDI in, isn't subject to these complex-fangled processes?
Could one assume that the dynamic range is determined solely by the "minimum volume" feature in the mixer?
This is a great feature, IMHO, as one can conltrol dynamic range sans compressor.

Rentadrummer, I've given some thought to your tom complaint, as I've heard you mention it a couple of times previously.
You could try:
1) Increasing sympathetic snare rattle for them.
2) Easing up on the dampening and employing smaller body sizes for the toms..
Theoretically at least, this should allow more "ring" to be heard but without its being sustained too long.

Just a thought.

[kgdrum]

hi Monkey imo what makes the Vdrum or any drum brain feel real(i have had D-drum.alessis dm4,dm5 and Pro as well.....yes it's a sickness lol)is the Trigger Inputs.trigger inputs are much faster,more reliable and much more tweakable than MIDI.I am sorry to say this Monkey but unless you are playing the Vdrums w/ pads,I don't think you are going to really get the total potential of this or any edrum kit that has trigger input capabilities and is actually designed to take advantage of these features.
KG