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EDIT: As no one but myself has yet read this topic, I figured the title was bad, so have changed it. After all, my main immediate goal is to determine whether I have to give up on the iMac approach and switch to a MacPro vs. doing an iMac upgrade. Only from there can I make all of the other necessary decisions such as whether to go ahead and order a new external firewire hard drive or not.

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Sorry for the obtuse title, but I couldn't find a way to fit in a logical summary of a rathedr verbose problem.

This is a quick hit-and-run before a dental appointment, so I hope to catch up with this forum for the first time in almost two weeks, later today. But I am certain this particular topic has not been discussed in depth.

I need to get a new computer. I also need a new hard drive. I thought I had settled on getting a 750 GB Glyph GT050Q quad interface and a new Intel iMac, but all of my recent purchases have comed up with contradictory requirements and/or extreme requirements that may not be possible to meet with ANY single-computer setup.

My biggest surprise and disappointment was learning that ALL firewire ports, whether 400 or 800, share a single bus -- whether a Mac Mini, an iMac, or a MacPro. I really can't afford a MacPro anyway, but that may be my only option for providing multiple firewire buses, via PCI slots (is this expensive? -- and aren't there only four available?).

TC Electronic says Powercore Firewire must be on its own bus, and at the very least that it shouldn't be daisy-chained.

Vienna Instruments (VSL) says you need the sample library to be on a separate drive from your main drive or your data (e.g. Digital Performer projects), and that this should also be on a separate bus.

RME claims that the best performance is to hook your hard drive to its FW 800 port and hook the Fireface 800 to the computer's FW 400 port. Vienna says the opposite (with the same equipment; not with some generic firewire device from an unspecified manufacturer).

Right now, I have the worst of all scenarios, but am ham-strung until I find a topology that meets everyone's requirements: I am in a holding pattern with my current single-interface Glyph GT050 400 GB firewire 400 drive, loading only a small portion of my B.F.D. and VSL material onto that same drive (for now), and not doing backups for the past two weeks (I was going to buy a new drive right away, until all these issues came up).

Once the Powercore arrived last night, I had to at least give it its own port, and as my G4 iMac doesn't have a FW 800 port, I had to do the worst possible thing and have the Glyph drive take the Mac's second port and then hook the RME daisy-chained into the Glyph (because the Glyph drive has two FW 400 ports and the RME only has one).

A short-term solution would be to buy a FW 400 to FW 800 converter (or two-ended cable) and switch that topology around while mulling the Mac upgrade decision.

Or maybe I should just get the quad interface Glyph drive right away anyway, switch the topology with the RME in front, and at least have backups again using the current 400 GB drive (not backing up the sample libraries, which would only tentatively be on the same drive, until a Mac upgrade).

Why do computers bother having internal drives larger than 100 GB? Programs aren't that big, and literally nothing recommends using the main internal drive for storage. I had hoped that if I got an iMac with a large internal drive, I could load B.F.D. there or maybe VSL. But B.F.D. also recommends a separate drive. And Muse says if you use B.F.D. you should load it directly into the Muse's main internal hd! So confusing and contradictory!

The MacPro's seem beyond my price range, but is this the only way to deal with multiple firewire devices and multiple hard drives in a proper manner, using the PCI slots for separate firewire connections and using the four internal hard drive slots with external hard drives only for backup?

I simply cannot afford an outlay of $4000 minimum that it would take for such a setup (including a 20" Apple monitor, multiple internal hard drives, etc.). Until reading the PoCo writeups while installing last night, I thought I had come to a satisfactory conclusion yesterday that a 20" or 24" Intel iMac would be a huge upgrade for me and would be satisfactory of all requirements, augmented next year by a Muse Receptor. But now it seems I have no choice but a MacPro with LOTS of expansions, so maybe the refurbished route of prev-generation is the best way to go?

Sorry for not wordsmithing; must run to my appointment but will try to wordsmith later. I really must resolve this by end of week in order to order and have something by end of next week and minimise my risk factor at least in the area of no backups.

After talking to my Sweetwater rep today, a new possibility has arisen, which may price out a bit more long-term but be cheaper short-term and more flexible.

I'm going to review the specs and price points more carefully tonight, but the just-upgraded MacBook Pro may be the best route. I didn't realise I could plug in another monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc., and that it has an "express" card option which gives me one or two possibilities for avoiding overloading the firewire bus.

I don't really need all the expandability of a MacPro tower, and a MacBook Pro would have the portability factor for on-location recording. I have to check whether it ONLY works on battery power, as I hate batteries. I printed out the Apple tech specs and will read them carefully tonight, as well as revisiting The Low End Mac's website for their recs on MacBook Pro's.

Another option I'm thinking of is getting a used G5 Mac Mini to host non-UB apps and plug-ins as a short-term measure (vs. trying to fit my G4 iMac on the same small table as a new MacBook Pro), and simultaneously use it to host all of my sample libraries except for the humongous B.F.D. This would keep me from having to use Vienna Instruments on the same firewire bus as my Digital Performer projects (although I'm not having problems with this approach right now, so long as I only use VI on one track at a time and render each track as I go along).

I have learned today that Muse is hoping to get Vienna Instruments working on the Receptor. No timeline, but they're working on it and that's what counts. I was afraid there were certain companies that may be deliberately not cooperating with them for various reasons.

So it looks like I can definitely keep Muse Receptor in the long-term plans, have it host Vienna Instruments and B.F.D., and just go ahead and get a 750 GB external drive for now and use it for sample libraries and project data as a short-term measure (possibly augmented by the short-term Mac Mini solution described above, and hooked up via Ethernet to avoid the firewire bus). It seems I would need that drive long-term regardless, even if its ultimate role ends up being a backup drive. And there seems no advantage to parallel vs. serial when it comes to sharing the firewire bus, so may as well just have one drive (750 GB is now very reliable).

I haven't priced all of this out yet, but the beautiful thing about this option and approach, should it work out, is that it allows for incremental purchases, with the immediate outlay still being a huge step up from my current 800 MHz G4 iMac. So it's a win-win, the way it looks now.

Once I make that decision, then I'll have the fun and joy of figuring out how to get all my licenses and programs transferred over. But I think there were already some recent posts in this forum on best methodologies for doing that (though the advice may not pertain to a case of PPC to Intel, where cloning the system drive wouldn't be advisable).

If I do go the MacBook Pro route, I would probably very soon have to swap out my firewire-based RME Fireface 800 for an Apogee solution that uses a laptop "express" card (I don't think RME supports laptops in that manner, but I'll recheck their listings).

So I guess I'll have to figure that into the equation as well -- though as I said earlier, even keeping my current external setup would still involve a big bump up when swapping out the host computer from an 800 MHz FW400-based G4 iMac to a 2.3 GHz FW800-based Intel MacBook Pro.

One doesn't have to go whole-hog all at once. But long-term planning helps avoid wasting money on the short-term incremental add-ons and upgrades.

One thing to keep in mind about the Apogee solution, is that it is quite expensive.

For instance, to use the Rosetta 800 on the MBP, you can either:

1. Buy the Rosetta 800 and use the ADAT lightpipe to connect to another device, thus getting good conversion and an existing firewire device. Total of $2700 assuming you have a FW device that supports ADAT.

2. Buy the Rosetta 800 and a Firewire exapnsion card for it. Total of about $3055.

3. But the Rosetta 800 and a Symphony mobile card. Total of about $3415.

And that is just the Rosetta 800 and not one of the higher end AD/DA units.

Just so you evaluate the real cost of future expansion.

I have the Rosetta 800 with Firewire and I love it. I can use it on the MacPro and the MacBook Pro when needed.

Thanks for the heads up on the Total Cost of an Apogee solution.

One of my co-workers who has a MacBook Pro showed me the express card slot, and says he thinks there are two varieties: 32mm and 54mm. He thinks the 54mm card can accomodate two separate firewire ports.

Unfortunately, I cannot come up with a search criteria for either Google or the Apple website that locates anything resembling an express card; all searches that I try end up focusing on the Airport card instead. Not sure what I'm doing wrong, as I tried several different criteria.

It turns out the official termninology is ExpressCard/34 and ExpressCard/54, but I'm still having trouble finding adequate information. persistence pays off, so I guess I'll have my han ds full tonight tracking down further info.

Those who are not new to laptops as I am, am probably wondering why I need to do any research at all .

Oops, I forgot that laptops (now referred to instead as notebooks) really heat up, and there are reports of the MagSafe connector actually catching fire!

Just when I think I'm done, there's a major wrinkle thrown into the works. I cannot take such a risk. I didn't realise notebook computers were so dangerous.

I dont think that the adapter catching fire is something to worry about. I've never heard about it or come across any problems there. They can tend to heat up but I cant imagine a fire starting.

The MacBook Pro uses the ExpressCard/34 specification. I use one to attach an eSATA drive for all my recording. Much faster than FireWire and that leaves my FW bus free for my interface.

As far as laptops being dangerous - no more so than desktops. Any system can have a manufacturing issue that causes problems (even serious ones). In general this should not be a determining factor in your decision making process unless you find significant evidence to prove that there is a pandemic issue. My MBP is on 12-15 hours a day, everyday and I have had nary a hiccup.

Though I find it a bit hard to figure out how you're going to pack that many separate buses into a MBP even with an ExpressCard/34 interface. If you need 3 separate HDD buses (boot drive, audio drive, library drive) and then 2 separate FW buses (interface, PoCo) there just aren't enough ports on the MBPs to accommodate that.

I can see:
* internal SATA: boot drive
* internal FW: audio interface
* ExpressCard FW: PowerCore
* USB 2.0: sample library (if it will work over usb)?
no audio drive

or
* internal SATA: boot drive
* internal FW: audio interace
* ExpressCard eSATA: audio drive & sample library (2 1.5Gb/s buses or 1 3Gb/s bus available over eSATA on an ExpressCard interface)
no PowerCore

or
* internal SATA: boot drive
* internal FW: audio interface & audio drive
* ExpressCard FW: PowerCore
* USB 2.0: sample library (if it will work over usb)?

None of those are ideal for what you want. Given the requirements you are trying to satisfy - I think you're best option is a Mac Pro. You get the expandability your hardware needs to operate at its most efficient.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks for all the feedback.

It turns out that RME does make a notebook option:

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hds ... erface.php

Of course it is also available in stgandard PCI form factor, and a PC I express version is forthcoming (no release date announced yet).

I'm going to go ahead and order the quad interface Glyph GT050Q 750 GB drive. Regardless of anything else, that plays into ALL scenarios.

And thanks for the full annotation of the possibilities for routing all the necessary devices and separating them by bus and/or by protocol. That is very helpful. I was doing something simialr, but didn't have the experience with some of the options to really know all the potential routings and assignments.

It didn't occur to me that the eSATA connection option might be best for the external hard drive, as the ratings I saw matched it pretty closely to FW800 speeds.

The ExpressCard/34 for eSATA has two eSATA connections right above each other, and is cheap (I think under $300). The vendor is Sonnet, and the product name is SATA-On-The-Go. I was too tired to post the URL last night and don't have it with me at work. Easy enough using Google.

I have also written back to the folks at Muse to inquire about potential connectivity options with the Receptor. It has an ADAT port, so maybe the RME Fireface 800 could be connected that way to the Receptor and then it feeds directly to the computer via Ethernet? Probably not, as the Ethernet driver would have to know what to do with multi-track audio so that it could be selected as an input option from Digital Performer. But all of that is too many levels removed and too abstract for just reading the manual as a non-user, so I thought it worth asking the folks at Muse directly.

Here I am full circle, thinking once again that my best bet is to buy the Muse Receptor now, and upgrade the Mac later. I can also hold off on an upgrade to my external hard drive if I offload B.F.D. to the Receptor (and eventually Vienna Instruments once that works on the Receptor).

I happen to be a Receptor owner. You cant hook up ADAT IN from the RME to the Receptor. The Receptor has ADAT OUT only, so you cant get audio into the box (computer or Receptor) that way.

Currently, I run the Ethernet to my MacPro, or MacBook Pro, depending on the scenario, I have the ADAT outs connected to the ADAT in on the Traveler and I run SPDIF OUT of the Traveler to the SPDIF IN on the Receptor. Gives me lots of options. Too many really.

Great box that Receptor.

Jade, thanks for that clarification, and your connections sound dangerous .

Now, if only Receptor could host Digital Performer... or Sonar... or even that newish Linux-based DAW (the more likely option, considering Receptor is Linux with a Linux-ported VST/DLL wrapper).

Ahh but it is running WINE windows emulation so you couldnt run a Linux DAW with the MUSE OS. You are actually more likely to run a windows program, but even so, all the routing would have to be customized.

BUT, it is a great tool to have. And a great offload of effect overhead.

Now if UAD only had a card for the Receptor, then we are talking some business.

My latest thought on cutting the initial outlay:

Is it possible to connect a MacPro to an iMac to use the iMac as the monitor, thus forestalling the $600-$1000+ purchase of a standalone monitor?

I have the 15" 800 MHz G4 model. There are a couple of connectors on the back that don't make sense to me, so maybe they're for monitor connections (though probably only for an external monitor for the iMac -- and I know for certain mhy model does not support dual monitor mode for drag/drop; just a "copy" of thge main screen on another screen).

I have a feeling this is another of those connections that goes "the wrong way"; like the ADAT connection on the Receptor .