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Yet another rewrite.... What does this mean...? apple = x86...?

This is just a rumor...let's see what happens on Monday...

I'm sure Steve Jobs will have the last laugh...he always seems to surprise us...

C

..well the goes altivec!

there was a port of os 10 for x86 processors called marklar... i thought it was a rumor but seems not...

That could be the last straw; the one that puts MOTU out of business. Do you think they can afford another complete rewrite? And if they have to do that, do you think they'll do any more development on what we already have?

Sucks either way.

And what about us users? We will have to buy new everything. New CPUs, new audio interfaces, new MIDI interfaces, new software... I foresee this costing me easily between $10,000 and $15,000.

Dammit. I just want to make music. I'm sick of computers. Sick of upgrades. Sick of compatibility. Sick of having to make things work every time I change one piece of software. Now, we're talking about starting over, essentially.

Jobs doesn't understand what he's about to do.

At last--at long last--this will kill Apple and the Mac. I've never said that before. Ever. I've always believed the Mac would prevail. But it won't survive another chip/OS change. This time the developers will "just say no" to Apple. There is no money in it for them.

Steve Jobs, you finally blew it.

Shooshie

Originally posted by Shooshie:
And what about us users? We will have to buy new everything <snip> Jobs doesn't understand what he's about to do. <snip> Steve Jobs, you finally blew it.

Let's not panic until something actually happens.

If you have been around a while, you know that there have been rumors of Apple moving to intel SINCE PRACTICALLY THE BEGINNING OF TIME. . .there were very strong rumors in the mid 90s. Nothing every happened. Nothing may happen now.

And even if it does, nothing will happen overnight.

OTOH I can imagine a scenario where there are intel macs and g5 macs, just as I remember a day when there were PowerPC 60x macs and g3 macs. Maybe those intel macs run iapps exclusively and aren't computers like you're thinking of but set top digital hub type boxes that go in your stereo cabinet.

PCWORLD for example, speculates a likely scenario would be intel and Apple building a video iPod using XScale Processors. iPods don't use G5s now. . .how does iPods current processor architecture affect your investment in DP, etc etc etc? It doesn't - the iPod spins around and your G5 keeps working inspite of there being iPods.

Don't Panic. There is no need to.

<small>[ June 04, 2005, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: emulatorloo ]</small>

It's tough to imagine SJ doing something which would blow the momentum the iPod has created. I think the custom application/box is most likely and possibly over a period of several years a complete migration, but in the end, Apple will do what it takes to stay competitive. If intel makes a new chip for Apple, chances are it would be customized and could even be a form of PPC that would take little to no rewriting of the existing code base. Let's not panic and speculate before its time. Monday will tell all. Let's not forget that Apple is trying to break into the server market with OSX server and their rack mounted servers. This is direct competition for IBM and that has to be trouble between the two. A real conflict of interest for IBM to be making killer chips for a company that wants to take server business from them. I think it would be in Apple's best interest to get a company to make chips for them that doesn't make software and doesn't sell hardware to avoid such conflict of interest. I'll bet that intel is betting on Apple in the long run over IBM as their chip business has struggled from day one. Perhaps the xBox deal and Playstation deal will lift them a bit, but those boxes don't compete with their core business so giving the cream to Microsoft and Sony doesn't hurt them like giving them to Apple does. Let's wait and see how it all plays out. It's really about Apple growing market share and whatever it takes, they will do what they must to grow market share.

Originally posted by Shooshie:
And what about us users? We will have to buy new everything. New CPUs, new audio interfaces, new MIDI interfaces, new software... I foresee this costing me easily between $10,000 and $15,000.
Shooshie

Well, I think all you would have to worry about is upgrading to the newest version of DP that runs on the new chip. All the audio hardware currently made by MOTU and others (apart from a handfull of low end PC cards) is cross platform. This could be a very good thing!
Chris

One of the issues not addressed in this article is the technical problem of heat in the G5 processors. This has been the big hang up with faster processor speeds. If the previous trend of speed increases had remained unchanged, we'd have 4.0GHz G5's by now... but we don't. There's just too much heat being generated. So Apple is really stuck if they want to continuing developing the G5's.

So, really this is another smart move for Jobs, which he has a long list of, and may be what saves Apple, not kills it. Sure, none of us Mac geeks want to work on a PC, but I don't think it will feel one bit different working on a sexy Mac OS. That is untimately what made believers of us all... not what was under the hood. Even if Apple does use Intel chips, I'm sure it will be a custom build or design. It didn't seem to throw everything off when IBM started making chips for Apple instead of Motorola, right?

Originally posted by Splinter:
One of the issues not addressed in this article is the technical problem of heat in the G5 processors. This has been the big hang up with faster processor speeds. If the previous trend of speed increases had remained unchanged, we'd have 4.0GHz G5's by now... but we don't. There's just too much heat being generated. So Apple is really stuck if they want to continuing developing the G5's.

So, really this is another smart move for Jobs, which he has a long list of, and may be what saves Apple, not kills it. Sure, none of us Mac geeks want to work on a PC, but I don't think it will feel one bit different working on a sexy Mac OS. That is untimately what made believers of us all... not what was under the hood. Even if Apple does use Intel chips, I'm sure it will be a custom build or design. It didn't seem to throw everything off when IBM started making chips for Apple instead of Motorola, right?

I agree with everything you wrote.

Of course, what's "under the hood" counts (you even site the G5 heat problem, albeit as a deficit). But software is where it's really at, from OS to app.

I must say I'm platform agnostic anyway. My work has always required I bounce between Macs and WinPCs.

MOTU will figure it all out. They already produce cross-platform apps after all.

I think the sort of fervent allegiance to one OS over another is analogous to the whole Chevy vs. Ford feud. That is, it's more indicative of the persuasive power of marketing, especially now that disparity between Macs and PCs has dwindled.

I'm just hoping there is another alternative. I don't see anyone here looking at the whole picture, nor am I implying that I have big-picture goggles that you don't, but I'm pretty savvy about this stuff, and I foresee trouble if Jobs announces the change. Yes, I've been along for the ride since the 128K Mac, and I've been there for every new development. I thought Jobs ouster from Apple in about 1986 was a terrible mistake, and it probably could have been handled differently to better effect. But even when they were going through CEOs like crackers, I was never really worried that the Mac was going away. When Jobs came back, I supported every move he made. It was an exciting period.

But let's look at the situation. Companies like MOTU barely made it through the leap to OS X. Let me just speak specifically of MOTU. It took almost 3 years from the release of OSX Public Beta (October, 2000) until MOTU had a working release of Digital Performer (4.0, in May of 2003). Three years of constant stress and turmoil from us--surely we all remember the daily grind here in Unicornation, wondering if anyone had heard anything, and the perpetual "soon" from MOTU. The rewrite was pretty much from the ground up. Writing for UNIX was not like writing for MacOS. Core Audio kept changing. Core MIDI wasn't working according to spec. All the interface products purchased in that period had to be cast off as "legacy" hardware. It nearly bankrupted MOTU, and it cost each of us a small fortune to get completely upgraded.

Porting our software to an Intel chip would not be the same as porting, say, Photoshop. Where is Core Audio going to reside? Digital Performer has connections to graphics, video, audio, MIDI, plug-ins and time code. Interlacing these is no small feat. Switching to a new chip may not be a ground-up rewrite of the app itself, but it certainly will require starting over for all the drivers, including the MOTU Audio System. In fact, it may be cheaper for them to lease some other audio system to take advantage of plugins already existing for Intel machines. We're talking about another 5 years of rough road ahead.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't have five years to worry about this. Maybe I'll just have to split off and go obsolete with my old Mac stuff, the way many people did with the Amiga in the early 1990s. But that misses the point. The point is that MOTU very likely hasn't recouped their investment on Digital Performer for OS X, yet. For them to suddenly have to do it again for the IntelMac would bring them into a precarious position, much like a double-mortgage. I'm speculating, of course. For all I know, MOTU may have a rich uncle who doesn't care what it costs. But I don't get that impression.

We lost a LOT of developers in the switch to OS X. But then we gained a lot more, and will continue to. Moving to Intel will be another shakedown for developers. How many are going to stay with the Mac at that point? Seeing that it changes before they can recoup their investment, it's very likely that many will simply turn their interest over to the PC and give up on the Mac.

The one thing that still gives me hope is that the Mac is positioned where Linux would like to be. It's an open-source BSD UNIX platform, with a user-friendly layer, and support from commercial developers, and lots of marketing. It networks beautifully, and has many superb advantages. It could keep the Mac in business even during a processor switch. But what if Intel goes belly up? There has been talk of massive losses at Intel.

Yeah, yeah... nobody needs to tell me that this story has been around for years, but this time it sounds serious, and even if it is, it's not going to happen overnight. There may be a lot of changes in the idea between now and the future.

But I'd bet you any amount that to make this work we will have to buy new hardware and software. That means for me:

••• Three audio interfaces @ about $1500 each: $4500
••• Digital Performer upgrade: $149
••• Waves Platinum Upgrade: (guessing) $1000
••• Two MIDI Time Piece AV interfaces @ $500: $1000
••• Other assorted plugin upgrades: $500
••• Scanner (mine has no OSX driver, and will not work with any 3rd party hacked driver--honestly... it's one of about 7 models that cannot be run with OS X. So, when I have to leave behind Classic OS, I'll have to get a new scanner. I'm betting that the switch to Intel will drop Classic emulation mode.) $450
••• New Mac tower with RAM, etc. $3000
••• New Powerbook $3000

And that's assuming that things like hard drives, wireless keyboards, trackballs, and so forth, all keep working and don't require replacement. If we have to replace these things, then it cannot be done gradually, but will all have to be done at once. Incompatibilities aren't fixable in increments.

So, just the above comes to $13599 at roughly today's prices. That's roughly what it cost me, also, to upgrade to OS X just 3 years ago, and we're already talking about 2007! Interestingly, it had only been about 5 years before that when I upgraded to PowerPC, with another change-over period to USB and Firewire and Digital Monitors. I don't know about you, but I'm not prepared to make these big leaps every 5 years. It's like another car payment.

Shooshie

There are just as many reports out there calling this story complete oobliagah.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/23/why_apple_wont_embrace_intel/

http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/cultofmac/index.blog?entry_id=1111006

It's nothing to worry about anyway. Won't stop me from making music, no matter what happens.

Shoosie,

almost bankrupted MOTU?? Where'd you get that info?

On occasion, I have disagreed about some posts Sooshie has made here at this wonderful Unicornation, but I have to agree with him and his feelings on this issue. I too am sick and tired of all the incompatability of platforms and software.
The greed of Apple and their indispicable way of constantly making my stuff old and outdated has made me want to just quit all this music making crap. It's a wonderful thing to be able to sit in one room and make a recording of an orchestra with two computers. Like Sooshie said, having to replace everything again is going to break this camels back. Check this out... I only got into DP and MIDI stuff in April of 2004. I started with a nice G4 dual 1 ghz machine and 2 gigs of ram with DP 3.11. It was wonderful. With the talk of this "new" OSX software that my G4 already had, I though hmmm, I'm stylin here, I am ready to use this new DP 4.0 version that requires OSX. I just recently spent a fortune on a new G5 2.0 ghz Mac with 3.5 gigs of ram and am running DP 4.52 and I love it.

This whole talk of MOTU going under is totally a realistic possibility, especially when Mac used to adore MOTU, now they would like to see them out of business since Mac now owns Logic. Just more hideous greed. I am sad. Maybe if this does happen DP will decide that PC is the platform of choice, and go that route, they would tell Jobs to take this job and shove it,,,, who knows.

I have been a recording studio engineer and concert sound engineer for a little over 30 years, and I see this like I watched Altec Lansing go down the drain because it just cost too much to make the product. It was a sad day for me then too, but I still have alot of Altec stuff and it sounds incredible. The high frequency drivers I use weigh 32 pounds each, that's just the high frequency driver. OK, sorry I got off topic, but I am still using these Altec speakers, but nobody will be using their 40 year old design MAC computer and bragging about it's incredible quality and it's ability to blow the doors off the new stuff.

I have to agree with Sooshie when he says,

Steve Jobs, you may have just blown it.

Regardless, if Steve Jobs does screw up, he will retire and live in a castle somewhere on a hill and use his pc to send emails. Don't get me wrong, I use a PC with Giga studio and it works wonderfully, but I have never seen any other DAW like DP.
My last bit of whining if you please, Apple is not going anywhere, they have never been concerned about what their stuff cost. Why should they care now. If this whole thing gets too out of hand, many of us, me included will have to regretably say goodbye to MOTU, because we just can't afford to keep changing all of our stuff like underwear.

I hope and pray (seriously) that Sooshie and I are wrong.
I am very proud to still type...
DP Dan

<small>[ June 05, 2005, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: dpdan ]</small>