MOTUnation.com

I'm serious. As I think about the inevitable next upgrade, the scales seem to be tipping in favor of going over to the dark side. Please tell me why an apple is a good computer and not an overpriced pile of junk!!!

Audioease has a chart of CPU usage of different machines running Altiverb, and an AMD3500 processor smokes a dual 2gig G5:
http://www.audioease.com/Pages/Altiverb ... bTech.html

You can build a pc based on the AMD3500 (which is a middle-of-the-road CPU) for $800 easily. Or spend $1600 and build a monster which will outperform a $3000 intel-mac.

I can only think of a few reasons to be on an apple right now:

1)DP - I love DP. I'd be sad to leave it. But it's not exactly the most stable.
2)OSX is pretty. Much prettier than windows.
3)no viruses. you can take your daw online.
4)Microsoft is evil. But so is apple!

Still, when I do the math I can't see how it makes sense to buy another apple.

cmcenearney wrote:I'm serious.

If you want a PC, buy a PC.

But don't try to tell us that Macs are soooooooooooooooo much more expensive than comparably spec'd name brand PC's, because they aren't and they haven't been for a good long while:



Computers are tools, and if you want a PC get one.

I have both platforms in my studio. However I will tell you than in my experience my Windows machine is WAY more of a Pain In The Ass than my Mac. A hell of a lot more "configuring" and "troubleshooting" involved . If you like that sort of thing, you will enjoy the Windows platform.

As to the OS's, Mac OS X IMHO is faster to work with -- winXP seems clunky and seems to involve extra steps to get things done. It is kinda like the difference between hammering in a nail with a hammer vs hammering a nail with the back end of a screwdriver. For some comparisons, Check out http://www.xvsxp.com/

4)Microsoft is evil. But so is apple!

You have got to be kidding. There are a lot of things that are right about Apple as far as corporations go -- relatively green, relatively blue, they treat their employees well, etc. And even if that weren't so, that's like a boxer saying, Mike Tyson is mean. But so is Gary Coleman!

At any rate, get a PC if you want one. I like mine. I get things done with it. I like using my mac better and it is more productive for me. YMMV

well my 5 cents:
let's consider that everything is •••• our there for a minute.
Take what you have (your apple) and reinstall everything to a minimum of what you need to do your job and concentrate on your task.
You'll be fine, believe me!
Regards
Reek

I'm serious. As I think about the inevitable next upgrade, the scales seem to be tipping in favor of going over to the dark side. Please tell me why an apple is a good computer and not an overpriced pile of junk!!!

I personally have not made the switch to an Intel Mac yet. However I do believe that the current round of Intel Macs are very price competitive with the Windows clones.

I do agree that MOTU/DP 5.xx currently has some serious quality control issues and I understand your aggravation, but I remain confident that it will be improved. I think it is a tough time right now to make a Mac purchasing decision, the new machines seem to offer a lot better value, but a lot of software and hardware are not quite ready. The Mac platform is on the final legs of a huge transition that has gone a lot better than many (including myself) would have expected. I strongly doubt that the Windows transition to Vista will go as well.

There are a lot of really great audio apps for Windows, but when it comes to quality there is no comparison between OSX and Windows. I personally believe that OSX at its worst is far better than Windows at its best. If Microsoft built cars, Towing would be the worlds biggest industry.

Still, when I do the math I can't see how it makes sense to buy another apple.

I would really take another look at your math. I believe you can build a cheap PC using lower quality components at a lower cost than a Macintel, but the Mac Pro's are not put together cheaply.

cmcenearney wrote:I'm serious.

1)DP - I love DP. I'd be sad to leave it. But it's not exactly the most stable.
2)OSX is pretty. Much prettier than windows.
3)no viruses. you can take your daw online.
4)Microsoft is evil. But so is apple!

You must be joking. Your own list should answer your question.

What advantage is there to using a PC? Cost isn't one because the higher "Apple TOC" an old Microsoft created FUD that's actually the reverse. Let's take each point:

1. DP isn't stable. And Windows is stable? Two words: Service Pack.

2. OSX looks better. Okay, to me aesthetics do matter when you're using the system for extended periods of time.

3. No viruses. Um, security is a big deal to me. Two words: zombie PC's.

4. They are the Evil Glimmer Twins. No, only Microsoft has been convicted of committing crimes. You might have heard about that a couple of years back.

Don't forget all the expensive security packages you will have to buy on a regular basis (virus, spyware, malware, etc.). Don't forget the cost of your time spent building, configuring, running scans, installing this weeks service pack, doing disk wipes, and all the other garbage that you HAVE to deal with in Windows.

Finally, while DP might be temperamental at the moment, this is the first UB release, so I'm willing to cut MOTU some slack and use my older version of DP until the next UB release. But if you're determined to go with Windows, don't say we didn't try to talk you out of it.

reekguitar wrote:Take what you have (your apple) and reinstall everything to a minimum of what you need to do your job and concentrate on your task.
You'll be fine, believe me!

I gotta tell you, there is a lot to recommend your approach. . .

Thanks for posting it. . .

Reminds me to post a link to:

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_tracking_big_cats/

which is an article about optimizing OS X for DAW work

cmcenearney wrote:Audioease has a chart of CPU usage of different machines running Altiverb, and an AMD3500 processor smokes a dual 2gig G5:
http://www.audioease.com/Pages/Altiverb ... bTech.html

You can build a pc based on the AMD3500 (which is a middle-of-the-road CPU) for $800 easily. Or spend $1600 and build a monster which will outperform a $3000 intel-mac.

I won't try to stop you, but I do find it odd that this particular chart goes no further than a 1.8 and a 2.0. These were released in summer of 2003! I don't know how these particular computers could even be used as an honest basis to shun the Mac Intels.

If you are in the market for a PC or a Mac, at least use data that's younger than three years old to be fair. Altiverb has come a long way in that amount of time-- as have Macs and PCs, and the later versions of Audioease's software have been much improved.

... and Altiverb 5 was released last year. That spec sheet can't possibly take the latest version of Altiverb into consideration.

Use both!
I've a G5 dual2.7 running DP, and a Shuttle PC running KORE with a bunch of VIs. Shuttle are small lil PC with everything you need, very very silent, but with all the needed bells and whistle not cheap. It's a great combo with the G5.

To me, it's not so much a question of either/or. You define what you need, and buy based on that. I'd recommend buying a cheap PC as your first PC, to find out whether you like it, and what you like it for, so you can spec a better PC later if your needs can be met with a PC.
If the PC doesn't work out, you can always install Linux, and if that doesn't work out either, you can always use it as a linux server, which you'll always find a use for.

Two Linux servers, two linux laptops, one Windows laptop, one Windows workstation and one SGI Workstation. I've had Macs in the past, and they were great machines for what I used them for -- it's just my particular needs that have me where I am now, mostly in the PC/Linux universe.
I still miss my various Amigas, though

why not get the mac and use bootcamp to use winxp? Then you have the best of both worlds.

davem wrote:why not get the mac and use bootcamp to use winxp? Then you have the best of both worlds.

Uhmm, don't you mean the worst of both worlds?

My main gripe with apple is not the OS, although I do think that the way they bullied everyone into switching was a pain in the arse, particularly for people like me who were running dp3 on os9 on an older machine that couldn't handle the much more intensive cpu usage of osX. I hung on until last week, getting 3 times as many tracks, plugs, and VIS as I could in DP4, until my powerbook667 finally bit the dust.

Anyway, my MAIN gripe is the hardware. Apple is the digidesign of personal computers, locking you into their hardware so that you can use their software.

I could keep ranting about how overpriced macs are all day. I'm going to stop myself here. Let me say thanks to everyone who replied to this post. It's always good to get some perspective when trying to make sense of the dizzying multiplicity of options that are available to us right now.

On that note, wouldn't it be the best of both worlds if you could build your own mac? There are some truly bad-ass machines being made by smaller companies right now. Gorgeous, silent, with high-end components.

http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=daw_pc.html

If you bought a machine like the one above, first off, it would be less than an apple brand. Second, you'd have a totally noiseless case that would last you a lifetime. When you need to upgrade you could just drop in a new processor or motherboard. Upgradeability, the MOST important advantage to non-proprietary hardware. Why should you have to buy a whole new computer every few years? Someone said that apple has relatively green practices- there's nothing green about needlessly replacing power supplies and cases, etc.

http://www.adkproaudio.com/systems/view ... ecordid=61

These machines are rock-solid. ADK has some machines that are upwards of $3000, but they are total monsters (they're the computers that U2 uses on the road). The $1650 "Scott's DAW" is capable of 100 tracks with tons of plugs and VI's. And it looks to me like their componentry is top-of-the-line. And their standard warranty is 1 year parts & labor with free shipping and guaranteed instant turnaround. Tell me, if you could buy a machine like that that ran OSX, wouldn't you?

Re your "build your own Apple" idea...

What strikes me as funny is that the word "clone" in the computer industry used to be synonymous with Apple clones.

That was back when you had to sell your machines on features, because the buyers understood exactly what they bought, and brand name meant very little. It was also back in the days when companies had more engineers than lawyers.

Arth,
Didn't you say:
Two Linux servers, two linux laptops, one Windows laptop, one Windows workstation and one SGI Workstation. I've had Macs in the past, and they were great machines for what I used them for -- it's just my particular needs that have me where I am now, mostly in the PC/Linux universe.
I still miss my various Amigas, though

Do you run DP on a non-mac?


I just did a little light googling and found a couple things:

http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/software/os/ ... 916,00.htm

http://www.osx86.theplaceforitall.com/howto/

It seems people are getting it to work, kind of....

http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/HCL

This is a list of hardware setups that people have gotten to run os x, with varying degrees of success.

Hmmm.... I'd really love to know to what extent apple has anticipated this and/or planned on competing with windows on all machines. That would be awesome!!

I'm sure for them it just boils down to numbers, right? Whether they can make more money by forcing people to buy their overpriced hardware or by selling millions more copies of their OS...

Nope, I don't run DP (anymore). There's a lot of decent PC programs, and even Linux is starting to get pretty good, with apps like
Rosegarden and Ardour.