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"I demoed the Neve plug and likewise was blown away. I had just gotten the Waves SSL plugs which are very good and thought nothing could be finer. I was wrong. The Neve is simply the best tracking plug I've heard or used so far. Dan"


Hi, this may sound dumb bit I was not aware you could track with UA plugs given the latency. I even talked to a UA tech and he agreed they were for playback only except for let's say a reverb where the latency basically becomes pre-delay.

I'll be overjoyed to be completely misinformed on this as it's a real bummer to not be able to use my UA plugs untill mixdown. The biggest drag is when I'm mixing, and then realize something has to be re-recorded, so I have to bypass all my UA plugs, turn off the delay compensation, record, and then reverse the process.

Best Regards,

Mitch

If you set your buffer low enough in DP, you should be able to track with UA plugs, like any other plug. But then you risk loading up your CPU. It's really DP's problem more than UA's - DP doesn't really seem to handle monitoring thrugh plugins as well as some others.

Dick, let me clairfy. I NEVER have used plug-ins during recording. By "tracking" plug, I mean adding to the track as an insert.

I, along with most others, have been resigned to the fact that zero latency in DP has a price. I use the Neve plug as an insert and as I stated it is still the best I've used so far.

My set-up is Apogee Rosetta 800 firewire with an Antelope Audio Isochrone OCX as the master clock. A software download from Apogee called "Firemix" (free) allows one to record with zero latency (but alas, also zero plugs.)

I plan to get into a PT HD set-up soon and plan to use DP as the front end. PT is the only thing I know that allows use of plugs with zero latency.

Sorry if I got your hopes up only to let you down.

Good tracking, Dan

Thanks for the clarification. Oh well....

FYI, Nuendo allows external effects to be applied to recording. This is only on a PC where DM is insert-able.

Here in the Mac world without Direct Monitoring, won't work.

If MOTU ever solves this it will be a new day for all of us.

I have heard from others on Unicornation that Logic is pretty good at monitoring with effects and playing through VIs. I've never used it, so I don't know personally. One user, Giles117, has said in past posts that he usually tracks VIs in Logic becuase the latency is much better and then dumps into DP to mix. Of course, paying $300 for Logic Express just so you can track with effects or VIs and then dumping into DP for everything else is a pricey way to go (but not as pricey as PT HD).

Native processing is just that, NATIVE. There will always be issues with native plugins trying to monitor in real time as the computer is processing many things at once. Although the UAD1, Powercore, Duendo and Liquid Mix are all dsp-based...they are still native. Huh? Well the DSP is for its own plugin processing, but the routing of the signal relies on sample buffers of how the application talks to the computer. Those plugins have to be routed through these buffers. Now, you can monitor with the DSP on the MOTU hardware interfaces, but when you add plugins...there is your latency. The rule of thumb is the better the plugin, the more resources it requires.

This is where having a splitter system from your pres that goes to your I/O's and then to a console for monitoring is key. If it's for yourself and not a band, that would be overkill in many ways. But the answer is if you want no latency with these plugins.... it's not going to happen. But my question is, WHY do you need to hear such plugins when tracking anyway? It's tracking, just record the signal and play with it later

Sometimes it can be hard to get a good monitoring level to monitor with what's being recoded, if you are mixing 'in the box'. In that case a compression plug or similar can get the sound to 'sit in the mix' better to get a better performance. Of course, I suppose there are probably better ways to go about that...

BradLyons wrote: But my question is, WHY do you need to hear such plugins when tracking anyway? It's tracking, just record the signal and play with it later

#1 I agree with the previous post re: a little processing can make a track sit better in the monitor mix and encourages a better performance.

#2 If you want to use a guitar amp sim like NI Guitar Rig, you need the tone shaping of the plug in to create your performance, particularly for overdrive tones with enhanced sustain.

I follow what you say Brad, and I understand that in a larger studio with an analogue board it's easy to patch in rack effects for the cue during tracking. However, I (and many others here, I imagine) run a home/remote studio and don't have much external processing for reverbs and other effects of the like. If I did I would just patch it into my i/o as a send/return direct monitoring solution, but I don't. Therefore, running a reverb plugin during tracking (say, vocals) becomes a neccessary evil to provide a non-sterile, enjoyable experience for the artist - and in return, getting good, useable takes. Just my two cents.

Take care,
Greg

Forgot to add:
I usually track with a buffer size of 256 and a single Reverb on an Aux. This doesn't introduce an insane amount of latency, and any that does result is hidden well by the reverb. I just use a basic reverb plug during tracking so it doesn't eat up my processor and patch in a nicer one and up the buffer during mixing. This has become tough as of recent though, since I started using DP5 on a MacBook. The CPU maxes out extremely easily, so one has to be careful. Rosetta + DP5 = brain falling out of head. I guess it's four cents now.

Greg

I lament this situation. I have been able to get some extremely rocking SVT-like overdriven bass tones out of the UAD Nigel plug-in. But because of the PCI buss latency, you of course can't track through it no matter how small you set the buffer.

I've found the best way for me to get an ideal source for this processing is to record the bass direct into an Avalon U5 and then into a TubeTech CL1B compressor. It's a quality, even, well-balanced tone to which I can then do grievous harm. Well, that's nice for me, but for the bass player, he has to either imagine that he's playing with a big fuzz tone while hearing a nice, clean tone, or I have to set up some kind of surrogate monitoring effect. I've used the little Sans Amp Bass Driver DI for this, but of course it's not quite the same.

For vocals, rather than endure the pre-delay effect of using a UAD reverb, I set up a separate "Tracking Reverb" Aux using an e-Verb. I assign the input of that Aux to same input that the recorded track gets. So if I'm bringing a mic into "Analog 1", for example, I set the Aux input to "Analog 1" also. The vocalist has their own tracking reverb this way. It's nowhere near as good as the UAD reverb, nor does it sound remotely the same, but okay, the singer has reverb in the cans while they track.

So this is not an altogether unworkable situation. It's just a little clunkier than I'd like it to be. Every recording system has little quirks that one has to adapt to (remember waiting for ADATs to lock up?). This is the quirk for DP + UAD, as I see it.

Best regards,
Erik

Greg,

I totally understand where you're coming from, believe me! Computer-recording has made it more affordable than ever for digital recording these days or recording in general. I remember paying $4,000 per 16-bit/8-track ADAT recorder. With (5) ADAT's plus a $20,000 console and all the other outboard gear, my goodness it was expensive! BUT until ADAT's came along, it was not possible for anyone but a major studio to have multi-track digital recording anywhere remotely affordable. So thanks to computers, you can have a rocking setup for almost nothing these days (in relative terms). The problem, however, is computers have changed how recording is approached by taking the tools away..... very few have consoles today and when they think of computer audio, they think of a mouse. Because there is no console, they now have to deal with latency, drivers, etc.

There are many wonderful tools for mixing, but tracking....computers don't change that. You can not replace front-end gear with software or DSP cards. If you were recording tracks through the pres I have v/s just basic pres and use plugins later, it won't compare...because the analog front-end is where your tone comes from, this is where you can kill your sound or make it amazing. Of course later you can do things to improve or kill it too! But it's about the front-end, as Erik talks about with his DI and compressor. OH and Erik don't even remind of getting the machines to sync up to the BRC. I had (5) machines and a BRC and it would take about 10-seconds at times!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

My point is, products like the UAD1, Duendo, LiquidMix, etc are great mixing tools but they are NOT meant for tracking. Now if you take that software out of there and use their hardware forms, that's different. But software is software. I LOVE the Focusrite Liquid Channel, own a few myself. BUT when I want a real tube sound, sorry... so I picked up a Summit Audio TPA200B and a Presonus ADL600 for my drum tracks and oh yeah, what a difference. I've tried everything I could later to get the sound I wanted but nothing worked, bencause it had to be done at the source. There are limitations in EVERYTHING today, unfortunately. I mix live broadcast television on a Control24, but I find that having only a 4-digit scribble strip is highly annoying. Unfortunately, there was not enough budget ofr a D-Command

But again Greg, I absolutely understand where you're coming from. In your case, using a very basic plugin for tracking might make more sense to give you that sound... understanding you can change it later. It's about working with the tools you have, learning them to get the most out of them. But unfortunately, sometimes the tools may not do what you want to do and finding a workaround is the best approach.

I completely agree about the front-end. That's something you can never plug in. I use the best tube pres I can afford and I'm saving up for better ones (I've got my eye on the UA Solo 610). I also use what I consider to be decent mics, such as the Rode NTK (which makes me giddy every time I hear it). I'm a big proponent of a good front-end, as that's where all my money goes ! What I was mainly trying to address was in the time based effects arena, effects that one usually never prints to "tape" (I know, I know, it's not a rule, just a general approach). I feel these types of monitoring effects (i.e. a simple reverb) can be replaced by software during tracking in a pinch without sacrificing long-term quality. Not having the proper tools for the job may make the task harder, but most of the time it just makes you wiser... Going off that comment; working with so many sync'd ADATs must have made you a freakin' monk ! I don't think anybody misses those!

Take care,
Greg

P.S. - How is the Duendo anyways? Seems to me that, as of current, the Powercore is more flexible - allthough I would like to get the sounds of some nice SSL channel strippage hooked up with my unit... I mean computer!

Hmmmm, I run my buffer at 128 and use my UAD all day long, I've never noticed long latencies at those settings.

It's quite possible my brain is so used to them being there, I just pre-process the delay myself

Of course, this is all true EXCEPT vocals. While I use the Neve for my vocal tracks, I don't record with it. I bought a Focusrite Voicemaster Pro and the smart people at Focusrite realized that singing with latency is HELL. So they allow you to bring in a mix, which I grab off my central station and throw into it. Then, there is an effects chain JUST for the vocal monitoring. So I use a MPX500 to just approximate what I'll be using in DP. So far, this has worked great.

On the line of interesting setups. Recently I decided to go out of my 896 AES /EBU into my Behringer Ultra Curve Pro, then SPDIF from there into my Central Station and then use the D/A in the central station to go to my Tannoy's. Someone had suggested keeping the signal digital to the end might remove some of the computer noise that was getting pushing into the monitoring, they were completey right!

(I use the Ultra-curve to do some mild non-phase distortion equing to balance out my room a bit. I used FuzzMeasure2 to measure my room response and a behringer measurement mic with it)

Fun stuff.

My next challange, find a pair of headphones that at least work a little okay when I am mixing in the middle of the night!