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I know you guys answer these threads a lot, but I have a few specific questions about switching to from PTLE/Digi001 to DP/MOTU (not sure which interface, yet) that I don't see answered elsewhere...
1) Does a DP/MOTU I/O setup require a separate application to let me pipe my normal apps out through the MOTU I/O? (ie: will I need some goofy stand-alone app like Digi's abominable CoreAudio Manager)
2) Does DP 5 require the MOTU I/O to be plugged in order to start up? What about PACE InterLok, additional dongles, etc.?
3) Does DP 5 require the latest G5 hardware? I'm going to be sporting a G4 for a while...
4) Does DP 5 have issues with processor upgrades? My machine's got a GigaDesign dual 1.3ghz G4 upgrade...
5) Does DP 5 have stable ReWire / Reason support?
6) Is DP 5 stable, or should I stick with an earlier version? I know I should UTFSF, and I wish I had time to do that, but I just don't A quick yay or nay will suffice...
7) Do people have problems running both a PTLE/Digi001 setup and a DP/MOTU I/O setup on the same machine? I'll need to keep PT around for a while, I'm afraid...
Thank you so much to anyone that takes time to answer this. I know you guys get a lot of these, so I appreciate the help!
muxlow wrote:
1) Does a DP/MOTU I/O setup require a separate application to let me pipe my normal apps out through the MOTU I/O? (ie: will I need some goofy stand-alone app like Digi's abominable CoreAudio Manager)
No
2) Does DP 5 require the MOTU I/O to be plugged in order to start up? What about PACE InterLok, additional dongles, etc.?
Nope, no, no. You can use internal audio, no ilok or dongles. There is a CD Code verification when you install.
3) Does DP 5 require the latest G5 hardware? I'm going to be sporting a G4 for a while...
It doesn't require it, but you will be much happier with it.
4) Does DP 5 have issues with processor upgrades? My machine's got a GigaDesign dual 1.3ghz G4 upgrade...
No issues that I have ever heard of, but you may want to investigate this further
5) Does DP 5 have stable ReWire / Reason support?
Yep.
6) Is DP 5 stable, or should I stick with an earlier version? !
All reports are relatively positive. I wouldn't be afraid of it, but it wouldn't suck to start with 4.61 either.
I love working in ProTools, but the headaches it takes to use it just aren't worth it any more. I understand that there will be inevitable headaches with DP, but I'm much happier dealing with the shortcomings of a small, accessible developer than I am with a "f*** you" corporation like DigiDesign.
Here's a short list of ProTools irritations:
••• I have a Digi001, so I'm stuck at OS X 10.3.8
••• I have a Digi001, so I'm stuck at Quicktime 6.5
••• I have a Digi001, so I'm stuck at PTLE 6.4
NOTE: I can live with be obsoleted (is that even a word?), but since I'm not going to give Digi any more money by buying a Digi002, I really can't get get around this roadblock. I don't blame them for not supporting the Digi001 any more, but the roadblock is a pretty big reason for wanting to switch.
••• Digi doesn't resepct OS X's CoreAudio. They built their own hack-job "CoreAudio Manager" app to allow you *gasp* PLAY AUDIO THROUGH YOUR DIGI HARDWARE *gasp* which has NEVER worked very well. For a while, you could only run one app at a time through your monitors. Want to hear audio from your browser instead of iTunes? Shut down your browser, shut down iTunes, restart your browser and find the page again. That's what Digi thinks is fine. Yeah, they introduced the multi-client version since that one, but to date it's still a buggy piece of •••• that's constantly crashing.
••• Digi's OS 9 > OS X conversion was so incredibly painful I don't even want to talk about it.
••• I don't want to think about going through a PPC > Intel change with them, especially when they're still fighting to make ProTools 7 work on Tiger on G5s.
••• Digi seems to expect their consumer/prosumer customers to act like their professional customers, ie: you ONLY run hardware that Digi approves of, you ONLY run an OS that Digi approves of, you run NOTHING but ProTools on that machine, you NEVER update ANYTHING until Digi says you can, and you WAIT PATIENTLY for MONTHS after ANY sort of upgrade/new equipment release for Digi to approve it for use. I understand their reasons wanting to lock down a system, but consumer/prosumer don't have dedicated recording boxes and we need to update our systems (machines die, OS updates include security fixes, we HAVE to run other apps, etc.). If Digi's not capable/willing to deal with the con/prosumer market's needs, why did they get into this market in the first place?
••• Digi doesn't even seem to TRY to keep up with OS X. Other developers don't seem to have a problem releasing timely updates for their products when Apple releases a new version of the OS or debuts new hardware. It takes Digi months and months to come up with an update, and until then, you're stuck where you were. So, if you're a "bleeding edge" user, you're life's going to be pretty miserable.
••• Can't use ProTools w/o Digi hardware plugged into the machine. The ultimate dongle, yes, and to be honest, I really don't have a need to use PT w/o my Digi001, but the attitude that brings about a requirement like is indicative of their feelings toward their customers.
••• MIDI bugs are RAMPANT. Notes that disappear as soon as you place them, notes that can't be deleted, notes that shift off the beat, etc. etc.
••• Every so often, PT will decide to stick a point of automation on some random track all the way at the end a session's limits (like, 3 hours of music or something). Sometimes you can find and delete them, other times, you can't and it makes life miserable when you're trying to scroll horizontally. If you're very lucky, they'll disappear on their own.
••• Lots of intermittent but repeating errors. For instance, I keep getting one where after a bounce, PT will kill the bounce with some goofy "assertion" error. The solution is to stretch your bounce another minute or two to get around the error, then trim off the end in another app. When you're writing 6-10 minutes pieces, this is INCREDIBLY annoying and time consuming.
••• Reason support is fairly stable, but whenever ProTools crashes - which it does with some regularity - you have to close Reason and restart everything. My Reason template takes about 5 minutes to open (I'm running two instances of DFH that take a while to load up), so this is very annoying.
••• You can only have one PT session open at a time. It's like 1996 all over again.
••• You can't open one session, copy something, close the session, open another session and paste it.
••• Using Import Session Data sometimes crashes PT.
••• Using Import Audio regularly crashes PT.
••• PT is constantly "losing" audio files.
••• Once an audio file is lost, you can't simply point PT to the file and say "There it is! There! Right THERE you stupid piece of ••••!!!!" You have to let it search, and - even if the file is EXACTLY WHERE IT WAS - ProTools may or may not "see" it.
••• Using AudioSuite effects (the ones in the menu) routinely crashes PT.
••• Using the "preview" function of an AudioSuite effect almost always crashes PT.
••• If you zoom using the mag glass tool, PT will almost always "corrupt" the waveforms of audio tracks. You just get an big block of red instead of the wave. Luckily, I found that if you zoom in/out ONLY using the buttons in the tool bar, this won't happen.
••• I/O settings (ie: labeling Ch.6 in as "Guitar Dry In") routinely get garbled.
••• You can save your I/O settings to a file, but you can't import them without creating a huge mess. And yes, I've RTFM. It simply doesn't work very well.
••• All of these bugs exist in PTLE 6.4 simply because Digi feels NO RESPONSIBILITY to fix bugs before moving on to the next version. I understand not fixing everything, but there are TONS of bugs in PTLE 6.4 and CoreAudio Manager 6.5.2 that they've refused to fix for Digi001 owners. Instead, they moved on 6.5, 6.7, 7.0 and told Digi001 owners to either buy a Digi002 or live with it. This would be understandable if the Digi001 had been obsolete for a few years, but...
••• ProTools stopped Digi001 development mere MONTHS after discontinuing the product. So, if you bought the last Digi001, you got a half-baked, bug-riddled product and were more or less immediately abandoned by Digi. "Tough nuts. Buy a Digi002 or STFU..."
••• Digi002's are (were?) fraught with problems. The power harness issues were the most alarming, but it seemed like everyone was complaining about those things when they came out.
••• Finally, the biggest reason for switching: Because of all this stuff, I work in a constant state of frustration, anger and fear and you can't expect a person to be creative in an environment like that. I use a Mac for a reason. I use OS X for a reason. And now, I'm going to abandon ProTools and DigiDesign for that same reason.
On the rewire front (and I stand to be corrected).... every time I reopened a DP project with rewired channels to another DAW, I had to manually re-establish each channel by going through the new aux channel thing again - every time. Other apps like PT and Cubase just had to have the primary DAW open first then the required app. The rewired channels would relink themselves automatically. DP had to have each channel relinked manually by selecting a track and allocating it to the rewired app output before I could get on with things. Hope this makes sense. Just thought I'd point it out if rewire is critical to your everyday procedures. Even "crashalot" PT did this without much hassle.
dmacintyre wrote:On the rewire front (and I stand to be corrected).... every time I reopened a DP project with rewired channels to another DAW, I had to manually re-establish each channel by going through the new aux channel thing again - every time. Other apps like PT and Cubase just had to have the primary DAW open first then the required app. The rewired channels would relink themselves automatically. DP had to have each channel relinked manually by selecting a track and allocating it to the rewired app output before I could get on with things. Hope this makes sense. Just thought I'd point it out if rewire is critical to your everyday procedures. Even "crashalot" PT did this without much hassle.
D.
(want to love DP but can't).
Stuff like this is REALLY good to know; helps offset disillusionment.
muxlow wrote:I am so fed up with ProTools, I could puke.
I know you guys answer these threads a lot, but I have a few specific questions about switching to from PTLE/Digi001 to DP/MOTU (not sure which interface, yet) that I don't see answered elsewhere...
1) Does a DP/MOTU I/O setup require a separate application to let me pipe my normal apps out through the MOTU I/O? (ie: will I need some goofy stand-alone app like Digi's abominable CoreAudio Manager)
- No, CoreAudio will pipe ALL Mac audio though a motu interface, even with DP running. And all at the same time if you wish.
2) Does DP 5 require the MOTU I/O to be plugged in order to start up?
- No. If it see no interface, it will automatically switch to "Built-In", and use the Mac audio system.
What about PACE InterLok, additional dongles, etc.?
- No difference there. If a plugin requires it, then you need it. DP doesn't, but neither does PTLE.
3) Does DP 5 require the latest G5 hardware? I'm going to be sporting a G4 for a while...
It will will WAY better on a faster machine. Way better. But so will PTLE, to be honest.
4) Does DP 5 have issues with processor upgrades? My machine's got a GigaDesign dual 1.3ghz G4 upgrade...
- That's a crap shoot. Some users report success, some don't. I've upgraded many machines over the years, but I won't anymore. There's more than processor speed in a new machine. You get a faster logic board, faster memory, a faster drive bus, etc.
5) Does DP 5 have stable ReWire / Reason support?
- I can't answer that one, don't use it.
6) Is DP 5 stable, or should I stick with an earlier version? I know I should UTFSF, and I wish I had time to do that, but I just don't A quick yay or nay will suffice...
DP5 is as stable as DP4, as far as I can tell.
7) Do people have problems running both a PTLE/Digi001 setup and a DP/MOTU I/O setup on the same machine? I'll need to keep PT around for a while, I'm afraid...
I run PTHD and DP on the same system, usually both booted at the same time, though usually not RUNNING at the same time. I don't see why PTLE and DP can't be on the same machine.
Thank you so much to anyone that takes time to answer this. I know you guys get a lot of these, so I appreciate the help!
muxlow wrote:7) Do people have problems running both a PTLE/Digi001 setup and a DP/MOTU I/O setup on the same machine? I'll need to keep PT around for a while, I'm afraid...
I have PTLE 7 and DP5 both running happily on my G5. I use a Traveler (FW) for DP and Mbox2 (USB) for PT. They both act as MIDI interfaces in both programs which is handy.
I switch between the two all the time, and, much as I love DP for almost all things, PT still works best for me for straightforward audio editing ( crop , trim, fade, slide etc ) particularly for extended cleaning up work.
I have both DP5 and PTLE7 as well.
Before 5 I would have agreed with the editing assesment.
With DP5 (and the new editing tools) I feel as comfortable editing audio in DP (if not even more
so) then I do In Protools.
I regularly use both Pro Tools HD, PTLE and DP, in major recording studios and in my home studio. While I understand your feelings towards doing things Digidesign's way, I've never experienced *half* of the problems you are listing! Sure Pro Tools has some bugs. So does DP. Sometimes though, as much as we *hate* it, you just have to upgrade and move on.
I'll tell you one thing. DP and PT make a great combo!
Quad G5 - 4GB RAM; PB 17" 1.5 GHz - 1GB RAM; OS 10.4.8, DP 5.11, Digi 002R, Mbox, Pro Tools LE 7.1, DV Toolkit 2, Music Production Toolkit, MachFive, NI Komplete2, EWQLSO GOLD, MemoryMoog Plus
matwell wrote:Sometimes though, as much as we *hate* it, you just have to upgrade and move on.
I totally respect that and have done so in the past (Macromedia's Studio MX for OS X abortion, anyone?).
Fortunately for me, I'm just a hobby recorder, so I'm not forced to use ProTools, hence, I'm not forced to upgrade. I can choose who I want to support, and I choose to no longer support Digi for the reasons stated above.
Hopefully DP will be better, but if not, I can already see that MOTU and this forum are far more helpful than Digi and the DUC ever were. And for that, I can live with bugs.
And at the end of the day, it wasn't the bugs that made me hate USING ProTools (I always dug the app itself)...it was Digi.
I read through your whole list of problems, and yes, some of them happen to me. Especially the MIDI notes disappearing, not copying thing. It comes and goes and can be a real pain.
But other than that, PT never I mean NEVER crashes on me. This is on two seperate, identical systems. I don't notice ANY other bugs than the one mentioned above, that seems to be much better in 7.x
I gave up on DP 4.5 for constant crashes and endless stuck notes. For me, PT problems were so minor compared to DP.
As you mention, so many of your dislikes with PT have now been added in PT 7. I really can't understand why you are going to spend the big cash to get a Motu Interface and DP, when you could get a 002r and then have all of these new features. Have you used DP before? We are talking a pretty major learning curve, and I gurantee you wont be free of bugs crashes and annoyances.
No offense, but you seem a little unrealistic in your expectations of a computer based DAW.
DP5.13, 2xMacPro 2.66, OS 10.4.8,01v96
3xVisionDaw PC, Pro Tools 7.3, Reason 3.0 RMX,Trilogy, Atmosphere, Platinum, RA,Komplete
Apogee Rosetta 200
A quick yay or nay will suffice...
