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Hmm-- may have gotten my numbers mixed. It's got to be either the Buckingham or Berkeley models.

Frodo wrote:
It was the SamAsh on DeSoto and Roscoe (?)

I've seen a Beatle head, and a Super Berkeley II there.
The Berkeley is a piggyback like mine, but smaller. It's about 17 watts with a 2x10" cab . It was also an Thomas Organ, Sepulveda model which sound nothing like a real JMI VOX.

yeah-- I'm seeing some oddities on these particular models.

But, the 1966 Super Beatle. There's an amp for ya! That's the only other one I've found with the angled edges.

Hey Zed-- are you there?

To appease my disappointment for not finding the Vox Headphone Amps today, I stumbled across a couple of halfway decent Beatle guitar books from Hal Leonard publishing, subtitled: "A Step By Step Breakdown of the Band's Guitar Styles and Techniques".

First glance is deceptive, but the pages contain some very special and Zed-sought-after info!!

1. Usually, there are two guitar lines included for the essential parts and solos fairly well notated with notes, chords and tabs.

2. Each guitar line is marked "GTR 1" and GTR 2" with an asterisk-- a glance below the staff shows the asterisk next to the player's name for that part.

3. Each song has some valid historical info about the recording session, including the date of the recording, what else went on during that session, and--- who played what! Caveat: the two volumes I found were not complete collections, but selected titles. There's no particular rhyme or reason to the selections chosen for these volumes. One is called Beatles Favorites and includes 21 fairly arbitrarily selected numbers (probably his personal faves, playing-wise). The upside is that there are no Beatle tunes that are disappointing in the guitar department, so this is fine.

The other volume is called Beatles Hits. Now, this is odd in the sense that the index includes titles from A-I and stops: from "All My Loving" to "I've Just Seen A Face". I had no idea that the latter was a "hit" per se, but again there is some good pickin' on that song, so I don't mind. I'm now in search for another volume which could possibly include songs from J-Z...

So-- to illustrate the immediate usefulness of these books in lieu of not having The Beatles Recording Sessions book handy-- here's what I found (and confirmed) regarding "You Can't Do That" mentioned in an earlier post:

"...There are auspicious sonic points about "You Can't Do That" (recorded on February 25, 1964, the day that George added overdubs to "Cant Buy Me Love"). Aside from its superb Lennon vocal and unabashed heavy R&B intent, Harrison played his brand new Rickenbacker 12-string for the first time on a Beatle song. John Lennon sang lead and played lead guitar on his recently acquired and highly-prized Rickenbacker...

I had to pause here because it erroneously says "highly-prized Rickenbacker 1969 slimline model". Obviously, he meant to say "Rickenbacker 1964 slimline-- which was the replacement for his 1958 325 Capri.

The story goes: Rickenbacker president, FC Hall heard that the group was using Rickies, he flew to NY for the first Sullivan show to meet them. Apparently, Epstein suggested that John's battered '58 model be replaced and Hall agreed. Within a week, the latest model, the redesigned 325 JetGlo, was shipped to Lennon at the Deauville Hotel in Miami where it made its first appearance on Sunday night, February 16, 1964.

Later that same month, the Beatles were already recording material to be included in (or removed from) their first film (AHDN). In this case, it was "You Can't Do That" (removed from film).

Back to the facts--

The signature intro riff is begun solo and played by George on 12-string [Ric 360-12]. It soon becomes the main riff-- running throughout the song's verses with slight variations....

There are also respectful notes included about Lennon's solo on this tune and his style in general-- citing that he also plays lead on "Birthday". It refers to Lennon's soloing style as an "amalgam" which "blurs the lines between specific rhythm and lead guitar approaches" where one characteristically finds "the rhythm in the lead and the lead in the rhythm".

I'm finding this fascinating-- and appreciate that the info is not gratuitously overstated.

There are one or two notational issues that only border on being inaccurate, but for the most part it's pretty spot on.

Overall, it's just what I've been looking for-- not an insulting idiot starter book by any means. It comes with a CD containing practice examples at various tempos, but I'll probably go to the source for audio referencing.

Both books seem way too thin, but all things considered I suddenly have 47 Beatle songs with guitar parts broken down and historically annotated down to the instruments used and their players.

I'd run across the name of Wolf Marhsall (complier of these volumes) before and had his site bookmarked three computers ago, but had no idea his books were as respectfully put together as they are.

Interesting site, this. Audio samples are fascinating-- and Tim's amp sits in the left corner!!

http://www.wolfmarshall.com/Beatles2.htm

(Post script: the day MOTU fixes DP is the day my contributions to this thread will taper off. See what kind of year it's been? )

Frodo wrote:
Interesting site, this. Audio samples are fascinating-- and Tim's amp sits in the left corner!!

"Vox 50 watt head with MRB"

Must be a Royal Guardsman (with Buckingham or AC30 cab).

Mine's an AC30 Super Twin Reverb (but I removed the crappy reverb).



Did he cover the 'Hold Me Tight' guitars?
That tune makes me feel good right when it kicks in.

Frodo wrote:Hey Zed-- are you there?

To appease my disappointment for not finding the Vox Headphone Amps today, I stumbled across a couple of halfway decent Beatle guitar books from Hal Leonard publishing, subtitled: "A Step By Step Breakdown od the Band's Guitar Styles and Techniques".

Busy Sunday, and sleeping schedule adjustments... but I'm still here.

Those books surely look like useful reference material and the stuff of great practise sessions. I am trying to practise each day and become more and more versed and able... so I'll have to add those to my collection.

Frodo wrote:"...There are auspicious sonic points about "You Can't Do That"... Harrison played his brand new Rickenbacker 12-string for the first time on a Beatle song."

Wow. I hadn't realized that was the Ricky 360-12. Now I want one of those babies more than ever. Let me just say that neither the Line 6 Variax nor the VG Strat came anywhere close to that kind of tone... although the VG Strat came much closer than the Variax.

Frodo wrote:Interesting site, this. Audio samples are fascinating...
http://www.wolfmarshall.com/Beatles2.htm

Fascinating indeed... BUT I was so disappointed that there weren't samples for all of the guitars pictured. I was really dying to hear the other ones. One interesting discovery was that it sounded to me like my fairly inexpensive Mexican-made telecaster is actually very similar sounding to the Gretsch Country Gentleman. Obviously there are probably lots of finer points where the Gretsch likely sounds better or different, but my first impression was that I could get a sound very similar to that and be satisfied.

Frodo wrote:I was quite ready to buy all three models-- the AC30, the Classic, and the Metal.

Now, now, dear Frodo. Don't let us go overboard. The VOX simulation would be fun to have for the novelty of it, and to compare it to what you might get out of Amplitube 2... but come on... do you really need to get all three!?!? I have my doubts about how satisfying the experience will be.

I'm having trouble keeping up with you guys on the whole amplifier scene. I cannot allow myself to start drooling and craving all those exotic vintage amps. I just can't afford to start feeding that habit in the immediate future... that will be tomorrow's obsession. But I am appreciative of the education I am getting.

zed wrote:

Frodo wrote:I was quite ready to buy all three models-- the AC30, the Classic, and the Metal.

Now, now, dear Frodo. Don't let us go overboard. The VOX simulation would be fun to have for the novelty of it, and to compare it to what you might get out of Amplitube 2... but come on... do you really need to get all three!?!? I have my doubts about how satisfying the experience will be.

It's more of a convenient stop gap than anything else. There is no programming on these things, so if you wanted to change the sound beyond using the guitar's own tone controls you'd have to change the actual headphone device. Easily portable, and it doesn't bother the neighbors-- or force you to turn on your computer every time you want to just get a little picking practice in. $40 is a small price to pay.

zed wrote: I'm having trouble keeping up with you guys on the whole amplifier scene. I cannot allow myself to start drooling and craving all those exotic vintage amps. I just can't afford to start feeding that habit in the immediate future... that will be tomorrow's obsession. But I am appreciative of the education I am getting.

It is dangerous, isn't it? That's another reason why the Headphone Amps (your suggestion, btw) offer increasing appeal until such time the real itch can be properly scratched. When I think of what I've spent on VIs, I could have had an arsenal of favorite guitars and amps by now!!

About Wolf's site, yeah-- it's not complete, but it touches on revelations that other sites don't. As with the books, my biggest wish is that he'd gone further to do the entire body of work. He's the only one I know of who has the right idea.

And indeed-- it is true that certain sounds can be obtained by using different instruments if settings are made carefully. This goes back to my earlier point about John and George leaving their trusty Rickies and Gretsches behind in favor of the Casinos in '66. I'm still amazed that John's choice of the 325 "shorty" facilitated his ability to play difficult rhythm passages (by his own admission) but yet the Casino had enough appeal to warrant his switch to a full sized neck.

These are two very different guitars, although I'm convinced that the hollow or semi hollow body construction of each was an important part of their early sound-- and a major link where switching from their previous instruments was concerned. When you think about it, almost all of their important early instruments were hollow or semi hollow, including Paul's Hofner. Among the exceptions was George's Futurama, being the best he could do in lieu of a Strat at the time. The high action made it very difficult to play, but the look of it offered a "cool" factor, he said in not so many words.

Tim wrote:Did he cover the 'Hold Me Tight' guitars?
That tune makes me feel good right when it kicks in.

"It feels so right", doesn't it?

Sadly, no. "Hold Me Tight" is not included.

I discovered that one of the books indeed covers the rest of the alphabet-- "Kansas City" through "You Can't Do That". Strange thing that Wolf gave the two volums two different titles: Hits and Favorites. (Did you know all the Beatles "hits" were in the first half of the alphabet and all their "favorites" were in the second half of the alphabet? LOL!!)

46 titles is probably more than I want to type at the moment, but throw out a title and I'll be happy to look it up and share any interesting info I come across-- if the song is included.

Oh-- and Zed, here's a bit of info about McCartney as guitarist!!

'Back in the USSR' is a parody derived from two sources. The title plays off the Chuck Berry classic 'Back In THe USA', while the arrangement owes much to the surf music sound of the Beach Boys. This was the one official song on the White Album that acknowleges Paul as the drummer. [Ringo had temporarily quit the band at that point.] He was also the composer, played lead and rhythm guitars, piano, and sang lead on the track.

To further confound the Beatle instrumentation issue, John and George BOTH played bass on the tune-- John on a Fender Bass VI and George on a Fender Jazz Bass...

... the catchy lead behind the the choruses .. is an unmistakable Beatle rif, played by two guitars in parallel octaves. The motif, a simple blues lick altered with a typical McCartney-esque interval skip (augmented fourth), is move to three different chord levels: A, C, and D. It culminates in a chromatic parallel sixth lick which effectively fueses the rhtyhm and harmony of "Kansas City" with the distinctive voicing of "She's A Woman".

And it's true-- the first three notes in the octave lick during the chorus indeed evokes "She's A Woman" to the extent of-- "my love don't...". I had to look more closely at this, but Wolf shows the lick as including the downbeats before it starts to syncopate: A, A up an octave, then descending to G natural. I know- "She's A Woman" is C# then up to A, then down to G natural, but it's the same character of an idea redressed, however unintentional, most likely. Same key and starts out as the same rhythm before branching off... pretty cool, me-thinks.

Hey, look what I found for sale in my neighbourhood:
http://vancouver.craigslist.org/msg/462602428.html

Can you please remind me, in ten words or less, how the 620 is different from the 360-12?

Frodo wrote:To further confound the Beatle instrumentation issue, John and George BOTH played bass on the tune-- John on a Fender Bass VI and George on a Fender Jazz Bass...

I was just listening to that tune while I read your liner notes, and I was thinking that maybe John and George were playing the bass at the same time. Wondered if one of the basses was being played more like a guitar lead? Hmmmm

zed wrote:Can you please remind me, in ten words or less, how the 620 is different from the 360-12?

LOL! Explain? Sure. Ten words or less? You're asking a lot!!!

360-12
semi-hollow body
24 frets
length 101.6 cm (40")
width 38.1 cm (15")
depth 38.1 mm (1.5")
neck- set-in

620
solid body
21 frets
length 94 cm (37")
depth 31.8 mm (1.25")
neck- thru body

Both
Neck width at nut 41.4 mm (1.63'')
Neck width at 12th fret 49.05 mm (1 .931'')
Crown radius 25.4 cm (10'')
Body and neck-- maple
Fingerboard- rosewood
2 high-gain pickups
Outputs-- mono/stereo
Schaller machine heads

Frodo wrote:

zed wrote:Can you please remind me, in ten words or less, how the 620 is different from the 360-12?

LOL! Explain? Sure. Ten words or less? You're asking a lot!!!

360-12
semi-hollow body
24 frets...

620
solid body
21 frets...

Thank you Frodo, my friend. I truncated your answer to the 10 words that were most important to me, but I appreciated your more thorough response.

Now I don't feel so bad about not buying the 620. I definitely want the hollow body 360, and the longer length and extra frets will be useful on a regular basis, I have no doubts.

zed wrote: I definitely want the hollow body 360..

360 v 63 model or the later version? (Harrison 1 or Harrison 2?)

Have you seen the 370/12 with three pickups?

Frodo wrote:

zed wrote: I definitely want the hollow body 360..

360 v 63 model or the later version? (Harrison 1 or Harrison 2?)

The one from this morning, of course!

i.e. The one he used on You Can't Do That, and which I thought was the same as the one he uses on If I Needed Someone. Is it the same?

Frodo wrote:Have you seen the 370/12 with three pickups?

I just looked at it, thanks. If it is basically the same with the addition of another pickup and further sound possibilities, then I am definitely in!
Not only that... 37 is my favorite double digit number. But I also like 93. Is there a 930/12?

The v63 model was on "You Can't Do That"-- the very same used in "Hard Day's Night". This had the perpendicular edges with the white trim.

The current models are still based on the 1965 model (more rounded edges) and this one was used on "If I Needed Someone".

zed wrote:Is there a 930/12?

Frodo wrote:The v63 model was on "You Can't Do That"-- the very same used in "Hard Day's Night". This had the perpendicular edges with the white trim.

The current models are still based on the 1965 model (more rounded edges) and this one was used on "If I Needed Someone".

Dammit. I had thought that the sound of "You Can't Do That" seemed much less chimey, which is why I had not realised it was a 360/12 until you told me this morning. But I fell in love with it right away. This infuriates me! Now I have to collect 2 different Ricky 12s? For crying out loud, this is maddening.

Unless of course the added pickup of the 370/12 gives the tonal options to accomplish both the v63 and v65 model sounds. I wonder.

I found a local music store with both the Beatles Hits and Beatles Favorites books/CDs which you mentioned earlier. I am going to check them out before closing time.