Digital Performer 5 is AWSOME!

[chrispick]

Just realize that some of us still working in hardware land have had some very real problems, and for us it's not a 'weak' way of working when we can express our musical ideas.

What is weak- and oh so frustrating- is a feature that you rely on that no longer works like it used to. Maybe you and many others don't use this feature. But I do.

I'm not trying to bash MOTU. I think they've got one of the best products out there and I've LOVED using the program- until 4.X. I realize that they've got a lot on their plate and more moving targets than certainly I'd want to deal with. But with all the (justifiable) jumping up and down over a new release, it just felt like that time again to say 'Hit my target, please....'

I just want to join the party again.

Tobor

Fair enough; you're right. Really.

I need to calm down sometimes. I have to resist this adolescent urge to push people's buttons. I think I was reacting to the negativity inflicted against a product that hasn't even hit stores yet.

Gotta lay off the Red Bull. In the morning. I'm saying this to myself.

FWIW, I've always attributed my success with MIDI -- I do run a few outboard things with it -- to getting decent firewire MIDI devices, then keeping my system clean. Oh, and turning off my keyboards from time to time (let them clear their "heads"). I don't know if that info will help anyone.

Anyway, to extract the good spirit of advice through my past hissy vitriol: Making music with computers can be complicated. So, research, plan and know what are and are not realistic expectations for a complex enterprise; assume some onus.

That aside, my apologies. I try to be cool most of the time, honest.

[Kaspar]

10.2.8 was a bad upgrade thrown at us just before 10.3. I went back to 10.2.6 and I was happy again! (But now I'm on 10.4.4 and happier!) ..and RAM is a relatively cheap way of upgrading your computer. Try it!

[markwayne]

i do think a big difference in many of these cases however is the caliber of machine people are running dp on. an iMac 800 with 10.2.8 and 512 RAM ain't gonna cut it. that may be sad, but it's also true.

512 RAM is barely enough for the system, let alone an app like dp. the frontside bus on that machine is also not up to snuff. and 10.2.8? another problem. panther was a big improvement for overall os efficiency.

Well, just let me say that I've also used DP/Performer since 1991 and I would argue that I certainly know what I'm doing with regards to computers and recording. I also have no problems with DP's stability. I have no problem with DP's audio engine. I can get more audio tracks than I could ever need with plenty of plugins. I have no problems with VIs (even Stylus RMX) or playing back large MIDI arrangments. What I've not been able to do reliably or accurately since 4.5 is to record MIDI. This is not a case of a computer runnnig out of CPU cycles and it is a DP issue. I can launch any other sequencer installed on my G4 (Live, Logic, Cubase or Reason) and record MIDI all day with no glitches! This has, in fact, become my workflow. I record all my MIDI in another app and then import it into DP for editing and adding audio tracks. My G4 has 1.5 gig of RAM, ultra-scsi hard drives and plenty of muscle for my humble needs.

I think that the problem for us grizzled, MIDI veterans is that we are used to not thinking about MIDI issues. I mean I've been using MIDI since 1983 and I have never experienced this kind of MIDI weirdness! I've recorded dense MIDI arrangements on various sequencers and computers all the way back to a Commodore 64. Never had a problem like this. DP 4.5 and above has problems with certain types of MIDI traffic under certain circumstances and it seems to me that the more MIDI gear you use the greater your chances of having problems. To us old timers this does not seem like progress.

just one guy's observation,
Wayne

[cody]

Track folders alone are worth at least $150 or whatever they'll charge. Been dying for this feature for years. I have 200+ MIDI tracks in my template - I'm really looking forward to this upgrade!

[Tobor]

Thanks to Wayne for a very accurate summation of the state o' affairs.

I also appreciate everyone's concern for my computer setup Believe me, I'm upgrading just as soon as the Intel driver/update frenzy is a little further along.

But that's really not the issue. The one advantage to my computer is that I can boot up in 9.2.2 and use DP 3.1.1. Same hardware system. Works flawlessly for complex MIDI sequences. Slices and dices without tears!

If I told you I was trying to run multiple audio tracks and plug-ins and VIs on my computer you'd have a right to laugh at me. All I'm trying to do is run DP for MIDI while syncing to other external sequencers and hardware. Basic. Little or no drain on the CPU. Something just ain't working right.

Take a look at the 'Stuck MIDI Notes...arrrrggghhh!' thread. There's 'qo' on a dual 2.7 machine, Shooshie on 10.4.4, someone else on a dual 1.4 and 10.3.9..... same or similar problems.

That's what made me post. Here I'm looking at spending how many dollars on a brand new Mac and a DP 5.0 upgrade, and I'm not convinced that I can hope for any better results than I'm getting now.

I'm not trying to say the new 5.0 upgrade isn't a wonderful thing. But it's obvious that somewhere along the line some basic MIDI functions very important to some of us ran off the track awhile ago, and until they're fixed I can't use the other wonderful features, no matter what computer I have. For example, I can't use a Wave Renaissance Plug-In and comp my vocal track if I can't lay in my basic MIDI tracks to overdub to first.

DP used to be the first thing I'd boot up. Now it's the last. And I'm not alone. There may be hipper music tools these days than a Korg Triton, a Yamaha S80, or a Roland VS2480, but they're not exactly dinosaur-ville. They still play together with DP 3.1.1 like hand-in-glove.

I still love MOTU. Maybe 5.0.2 will return my love.

Tobor

[MT]

If they don't fix the issues in the current version, like those mentioned, and the Drum Editor problem, then I couldn't care less.

The attempt by some software companies to distract loyal users from show stopping issues by throwing a new version number and a couple of new features in is getting old.

.02

MT

I couldn't agree more.

2.7 and 4.12 are the only versions I could use without deal-breaking issues. Hire some decent programmers already!

I can't tell. Are you people being funny?

If not, you only need to look in the mirror to find where your technical issues are. If you can't trouble shoot your own setups stay out of the DAW kitchen. Leave MOTU out of it. No amount of programming can help you. DP 4.5 and 4.6 are the most stable apps I've ever had on system - slow maybe, but not unstable. No crashes in several busy weeks.

Hey, look, man, all you have to do is ask first and then you can decide whether or not to be a jerk. No, I'm not being funny. Nor am I saying "this app sucks". Actually, I've never had a crash in the time that I've been recording with DP.

My main issue, the Drum Editor issue, has been registered with MOTU. I captured it on a QuickTime movie, because they kept blowing me off about it. Here's the latest response, in which they acknowledge the problem:

"As of now, we are currently looking into this. Thanks for all the info and sources on how to reproduce it.

Thanks for writing,
-Erik
MOTU Tech"

"dix" - how appropriate.

MT

[blue]

Take a look at the 'Stuck MIDI Notes...arrrrggghhh!' thread. There's 'qo' on a dual 2.7 machine, Shooshie on 10.4.4, someone else on a dual 1.4 and 10.3.9..... same or similar problems.
Tobor

but that's the thing. not everybody running on those machines with those os versions are getting stuck notes, which means the problem may exist elsewhere.

[dix]

"dix" - how appropriate.

LOL! Ok, I deserved that.

[MT]

"dix" - how appropriate.

LOL! Ok, I deserved that.

[grimepoch]

As for the stuck MIDI notes, I don't see them, is it an interface issue? What always boggles my mind is trying to troubleshoot a problem that exists for one person and not another. I've written and sold software, so I can CERTAINLY appreciate the frustration. When something I wrote worked flawlessly on my system, I had a REAL HARD time reproducing it on another system.

I use ton's of VI's and hardware synths, BUT, I use all MOTU interface hardware for the most part (896, 896HD, MIDI Express XT).

The only thing I know for sure is that DP does work differently on different systems. I've personally run it on my dual 1.8 G5 and my 867 G4 Powerbook. My neighbor runs a 667 G4 Quicksilver and I watch him have strange problems I've never seen on my system. Same software.

The biggest thing I did was install more RAM in my G5, this made a huge difference. BUT, I also noticed something else that was killing my CPU availability. Safari and Firefox running in the background and on some larger projects, I get cut-outs. Also, if I try to Aggregate the built in interface in my G5 with the other 896s, the CPU meter jumps up almost 25% when not even using the interface, just including it in the list (meaning nothing routes to it in the audio bundles.

Comparing DP on OS9 and DP on OSX isn't necessarily the most fair comparison. The OS operate VERY differently. Not to say I think Motu's performance shouldn't have gone backwards a little bit, but it did. Mostly, I don't believe OSX is as fast as OS9 was. BUT, the features we get in OSX to me certainly outweigh the performance loss. I never owned a mac till OSX came out, now I own 3!

I certainly welcome all these new additions, as every little bit to me adds to the DP experience. Every person who comes in my studio and watches me work in DP drools at what I can do, and how fast. But, I stand by a lot of opinions that as users and supporters of their software, I don't think our desire to have a bit more speed out of the application is unfounded. If we don't say something about it, Motu will never know how important it is for those of us that do use it.

The question for yourselves will remain; can DP do the job you need to sustain your business. For Motu the question will be; can DP continue to gain marketshare and keep it's current users? Their numbers will dictate where they go. They've been around for this long, I am sure they aren't going anywhere soon.

[Tobor]

blue wrote

but that's the thing. not everybody running on those machines with those os versions are getting stuck notes, which means the problem may exist elsewhere.

Therein lies the mystery. My problems seem to manifest themselves when using midiclock sync or MTC with external hardware units. DP as master without syncing or slaving and one-to-one interactions with hardware synths works fine. My 'stuck notes' phase went away since I sidestepped some of these issues and installed/reinstalled drivers, but timing/sync issues are still driving me nuts. Huge inconsistency from one day/session to the next.

qo has some interesting theories about OSX/USB on the 'Stuck Notes...' thread.

I just hope that an answer or workaround can be found soon for those us with 'the MIDI problem'. Hardware? Software? DP? Comcast? By putting this issue out there, we're just trying to figure out the 'why' of it all. Believe me, I'd rather spend the day making music.

Tobor

[dbudde]

Haven't seen this answered yet, but Magic Dave said DP5 is due this quarter, and universal binaries are due next quarter. No discussion on pricing.

[mastermix]

With all due respect to all you good people who have a stable system, for me the DP4.X era with the nice big shiny blue manuals has been largely a waste.

See the 'Stuck MIDI Notes.....arrrrggghhh!' thread, which comes up at regular intervals in some form or another.

iMac800/512, 10.2.8, EZQuest FW,828, MTPAV, VS2480, DIF-AT, S80,

Tobor

It is very likely that your computer is underpowered.

An 800MHz iMac with 512 Meg RAM is more like a recipe
for diasaster. I doubt DP4.x will run properly on your
computer. Try a faster machine if you can.

Kris...

[Splinter]

I don't know why DP is unstable on your computers. I've never had stuck MIDI problems. DP doesn't crash on my box.

I think you guys don't know what you're doing. Flat out. You rationalize some weak way you work, then externalize the blame.

Maybe your use is just remedial. If your "box" never crashes and most others do, maybe there's something wrong with what you're doing. Or maybe you just don' know how to use a computer. I've never used any software that didn't crash from time to time. DP crashes from time to time, not just for one or two, but everyone... except you. It doesn't make the rest of us idiots and you don't need to be so condescending about it either.

[chrispick]

I don't know why DP is unstable on your computers. I've never had stuck MIDI problems. DP doesn't crash on my box.

I think you guys don't know what you're doing. Flat out. You rationalize some weak way you work, then externalize the blame.

Maybe your use is just remedial.

You think so?

If your "box" never crashes and most others do, maybe there's something wrong with what you're doing. Or maybe you just don' know how to use a computer.

Are you saying that, because I can use my gear without breaking it down, I don't know how to use my gear? Help me parse your statement.

I've never used any software that didn't crash from time to time. DP crashes from time to time, not just for one or two, but everyone... except you. It doesn't make the rest of us idiots and you don't need to be so condescending about it either.

Well, I did apologize for that. You're right; my language in that post was too harsh.

I still stand by my claim that DP is and has been stable for me. And that I don't know why you guys can't make it work for you. It's perplexing to me.

It's hard for me to understand, I guess. In my previous life, I was a computer animator. There, I ran into the same division: those who often crashed their boxes and those who didn't. I was one who didn't. I don't know why. I just know I always tried not to crash it.

But, I am more sympathetic to your frustrations than my previous, knee-jerk post conveys.