Varispeed audio in DP

[tommymandel]

I'm not sure if he turned Pure DSP off or not, but 'ere's the guy's name & email
Guy LaMacchia <guy (at) pearmainstudio. (dotcom>

[newrigel]

I don't use it or have a need to use it... big deal man. I'm not ranking on people for using it, I just made a statement that some don't use these tools. I don't rank on people because of their opinions though, I just state facts that some don't have any need for gimmicks or ways of deception. If I track to a tune that's slowed down and then sped up... that's not a true representation of my performance... that's all. No harm done, it's just a trick and some need to use tricks I guess to achieve a musical idea and goal. If you need it then fine, some don't.

[James Steele]

I suppose it depends on what you wish to do with a song or piece of music. If it's just some sort of corporate thing and you're trying to get it done and delivered... so what? On the other hand, if it's something that I'm putting my name on and I'm a performer or band, etc. my feeling is that if I can't sing that high note, then I just don't sing it or modify the arrangement so that I don't need to. I have a pretty good range anyway, but if it's a note I can't reach naturally, I'm not going to fake it. UNLESS, as mentioned it is something that is a commercial/corporate thing and I don't care because it's not going to be associated with me by anybody that matters to me.

[stephentayler]

I’m really surprised at you lot banging on about musicianship and honour, and what you don't or won't do.

To my mind there is room for anything in recording, it’s about making great records or great pieces of art, or great soundtracks. I do get what is being said about performance here, but it has really overwhelmed what I thought was a useful and intelligent discussion about speed and pitch techniques in recording, especially with relation to DP, and in relation to manipulation of sound for any context (but especially with regard to problem solving, sound design, special effects etc.....)

I am just a little shocked at the attitude and tone that has been frankly quite dismissive and condescending to some of the really intelligent, talented and helpful voices here.

May I remind you that Les Paul, father of of both the electric guitar and multitracking, was a hugely talented player, and he used varispeed tricks in his wonderful multitracked pieces. This was to create new tones and colours as an effect which could not be achieved any other way.

Stephen

[BKK-OZ]

I just state facts that some don't have any need for gimmicks or ways of deception.

Then don't use compression, reverb, distortion, amplification, use nothing but your natural voice. Go sing naked under a tree, and slap yourself for accompaniment and then no-one will be deceived by anything you do. In the last few months I have seen you rag on people that use outboard effects, surround mixing, loops (oh no! not that again!) and a bunch of other things. It would be great if you could try to be more positive and helpful more often, because I do believe you have some great insights to share.

For some others, myself included, I like to learn about studio craft and studio technique. If that's not your thing, maybe you should leave those threads alone.

I have found many of the posts herein to be really interesting, really illuminating about what can be done, and how, using varispeed. The Beatles, Les Paul (as ST mentioned) and others used it to great musical effect, and some of the ideas herein have given me much food for thought, so thanx to all those who have made positive contributions.

[mrbillet]

Yeah, there is some weird ego crap going around. Being technically competent doesn't make any of us very special. It requires zero creativity to be a proficient player. If we're having fun and getting things done with our tricks and toys then what the hell? It's all practice to me. I've never become a worse player when experimenting.

Besides, I doubt it will be due to Vari-speed when the next Nirvana comes along and smashes the established trends. I don't think anyone's career is at risk over this.

-Ian

[ghobish]

I'm not ranking on people for using it, I just made a statement that some don't use these tools. I don't rank on people because of their opinions though, I just state facts that some don't have any need for gimmicks or ways of deception. If I track to a tune that's slowed down and then sped up... that's not a true representation of my performance... that's all. No harm done, it's just a trick and some need to use tricks I guess to achieve a musical idea and goal. If you need it then fine, some don't.

Yeah man, you are. You can't say you're not sitting in judgement on other users and then use condescending and derogatory terms like "gimmicks" and "deception" and "tricks." Well, "tricks" maybe yeah, because you know what? Tricks are fun. Tricks are creative.

So you want to make only what you consider "honest" records. Great. Go and do it. More power to ya. You won't find me criticizing you over it. That's the record you want to make."" But are you going to tell me you never, for example, double track a rhythm guitar? Or use a device on stage or in the studio that makes it sound like you did?

Live music and making records, to me, are two different things. There are great bands and there are bands that make great records. Sometimes they are even the same band. But not always. It's two different skill sets that don't always overlap, so please cut the holier than thou stuff and let's talk get back to helping each other use the stuff we have in DP creatively and figuring ways to make it even better.

[James Steele]

I’m really surprised at you lot banging on about musicianship and honour, and what you don't or won't do.

To my mind there is room for anything in recording, it’s about making great records or great pieces of art, or great soundtracks. I do get what is being said about performance here, but it has really overwhelmed what I thought was a useful and intelligent discussion about speed and pitch techniques in recording, especially with relation to DP, and in relation to manipulation of sound for any context (but especially with regard to problem solving, sound design, special effects etc.....)

I am just a little shocked at the attitude and tone that has been frankly quite dismissive and condescending to some of the really intelligent, talented and helpful voices here.

May I remind you that Les Paul, father of of both the electric guitar and multitracking, was a hugely talented player, and he used varispeed tricks in his wonderful multitracked pieces. This was to create new tones and colours as an effect which could not be achieved any other way.

Stephen

Excuse me but don't project condescension onto me. And I need not be reminded about Les Paul. I was merely conveying my personal feelings. And as far as Les Paul goes, My example had NOTHING to do with "new tones and colours." NOTHING. I was talking about using recording tricks to make a player sound like he could pay faster than he really could. "Counterfeit chops." This is entirely different than "tones and colours" or extensive layering ala Brian May, etc. Nobody reasonably thinks that Brian is playing all three or four parts simultaneously. But Brian IS playing it up to tempo himself.

Again, it may be a genre thing. If you have an idea in your head and it's just about getting the idea across then go ahead and track a guitar solo at slow speed so when it plays back it sounds like you're playing way faster than you possibly can. Or if you can't sing that note in a lead vocal, pitch shift it up. But if you had to use studio tricks and someone says "Wow! Is that YOU playing that fast?" or "Is that YOU singing that high note?" can you answer "yes" with a completely clear conscience? I know I couldn't. But that's just a ideal that is ingrained into the culture of musicians I have been around in a particular genre. If your purpose is to explore "tones and colours" then fine. If the intent is to fake chops that's different-- and that's what I was talking about.

[zaratero]

I agree. Gimmick, deception and tricks.


But I knew, and liked it a lot.

I still want to do the slow down comedy effect. I´d say that one even the audience knows is a trick.
Thanks to all the suggestions for accomplishing varispeed, I´ll try them out.

[James Steele]

But are you going to tell me you never, for example, double track a rhythm guitar? Or use a device on stage or in the studio that makes it sound like you did?.

This is another "tone and colour" concept. Double tracking a guitar is a different thing than what I was talking about. I'm making two passes at playing a guitar part, but I'm actually playing the parts up to tempo. People who listen to the recording all KNOW that it is physically impossible for me to play two guitars simultaneously in realtime. However if I want to play a blazing fast run in guitar solo but I don't possess the skill to do so, if I slow playback and record it at half tempo and then speed it up so it sounds like I really played it that fast, then it's deceptive, because unlike doubling a rhythm guitar where it's obvious to the listener I can't be playing two guitars at once, it's not obvious that I can't really play what they reasonably assume I am playing.

Again-- I've only tried to explain what is a prevalent attitude and "ethic" among hard rock / metal players. There is an aguably disproportionate emphasis on SPEED, to the point that I find many "shredders" unlistenable for any length of time because feel and melody gets short shrift. Nonetheless, because speed is a prized skill, something that appears to be faking that skill is looked down upon IN THOSE CIRCLES.

[BKK-OZ]

I am just a little shocked at the attitude and tone that has been frankly quite dismissive and condescending to some of the really intelligent, talented and helpful voices here.

Excuse me but don't project condescension onto me.

FWIW James, I don't think ST was projecting onto you. Your earlier statement:

"...I'll just make it clear to everyone that my personal beliefs align with Harley's in many areas, but I'm not going to get in someone's face if they use varispeed to play a guitar solo that they couldn't possibly play themselves up to tempo...."

...says it well. Your posts haven't been filled with condescension, but others have.

Now, how do you spell varispeed again?

[tommymandel]

When Eric Clapton played the end solo on Deserted Cities of the Heart, no one doubted that he'd recorded it at half-speed. Lindsay Buckingham has released that sort of thing too.

Perhaps the hidden issue is twofold:
1) is the artist intending to misrepresent his performance?
2) is being a more proficient player a good thing in and of itself?

[newrigel]

Oh well... looks like I'm in the minority here too !

[newrigel]

Live music and making records, to me, are two different things. There are great bands and there are bands that make great records. Sometimes they are even the same band. But not always. It's two different skill sets that don't always overlap, so please cut the holier than thou stuff and let's talk get back to helping each other use the stuff we have in DP creatively and figuring ways to make it even better.

I'm not holier than thou... just in tune with my capabilities and I think I'd quit performing music if I needed tricks to actually perform it. I don't know if your a singer, but if you need to slow down something to sing to it... maybe your overstepping your capabilities a bit? No?
Myself, I'd quit. If you have to manipulate and massage a performance to match a given performance, your overstepping your boundaries... that's all I have to say about it.

[philbrown]

Ran across this Alan Parsons post quite by accident today.
The man definitely has street cred, that's for sure.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/q-engine ... ocals.html

Hi Alan,

Just a question about Eric Woolfson's lead vocal on "Eye in the sky":
There's a beautiful spaced-out feel to Eric's vocal on this song.The vocal sounds double-tracked to me and if that's the case, I was wondering if you'd used varispeed whilst tracking?

Thanks so much for doing this.

David

Alan Parsons:
Varispeeding while double tracking vocals achieves little, since the singer will always pitch to what he hears. The EITS vocal was definitely DT'd. On the other hand any fixed pitch instrument double tracked with a small amount of varispeed is magical, and it's one of my trademarks I would say - especially for guitars both acoustic and electric. It's difficult to do on DAWs in real time - you have to change the sampling rate. Someone should build a dedicated box to do that. I've often resorted to using the clock output of a Tascam DA-88 for digital varispeeding.