MOTU - "BETA Testing" DP8

[kgdrum]

This was not just a "regular update".

You know DP8 is now 100% Cocoa AND it's 64-bits AND they put out a Windoze version.

It really surprises me how some people, in the middle of a project, without backups, simply go out there and get a .0 new release (that was rewritten from the ground up) and then comlpain and act surprised when they have issues. I mean, REALLY???

I agree,this is a major update and rewrite and even though there's been some issues,it's really an amazing .0 release.
I had some issues with Sampletank,Sonicsynth and Sampletron today so I had to remove the component files for them.
I'm sure that the issue is IK related not DP related as every other AU I have from every other developer is working well.
I called MOTU tech support while I was trying to sort out the IK issues I'm having and the person I talked to confirmed that 8.01 will be ready fairly soon.
I'm confident this will address many of the issues we've been seeing.
I expect DP8 which I already think is a great update will soon be improved & be even better.
Every DP.0 release I've ever used after a few updates has become the versions we always praise.
We always hear about users who use & praise a DP5.13 or 7.24 etc....we never hear about DP users who stick with .0 versions of these or any piece of DAW software from any company that's been updated a few times.
IMO this is as big of an update if not bigger then when DP was updated for OSX(was that DP4?) who stayed on the .0 version? Wasn't it 4.5 or DP4.6 that started to get things working well?
I actually think DP8.0 is amazing for a .0 update of this magnitude.

[Guitar Gaz]

This was not just a "regular update".

You know DP8 is now 100% Cocoa AND it's 64-bits AND they put out a Windoze version.

It really surprises me how some people, in the middle of a project, without backups, simply go out there and get a .0 new release (that was rewritten from the ground up) and then comlpain and act surprised when they have issues. I mean, REALLY???

Reason 6.5 was not just a "regular update" either - it incorporated the other Propellerhead app Record including audio recording. Because of volunteers like myself the product reached the public fully working with few bugs. Its been a long time since release and we are still only on 6.5.1.
If you are selling a product people who buy it sort of expect it to work - its not really my problem that its a major rewrite or a .0 release. I am "acting surprised" that they haven't tested it properly because Rewire use is one of the things that DP does and is advertised in the manual - DP did not always have sound producing VI's and Reason did not have audio recording so for many this was a great solution - and it still is. And the first thing I do (after helping to sort out the use of customised themes transferred from DP7 - see earlier threads) is to load up Reason in Rewire on 64 bit. And as soon as I experiment with some editing it crashes DP8 - and it does the same when both apps are in 32 bit as well. This is pretty basic. It proves it DP8 was not properly tested for all the things it is supposed to do. I can't do much more with it till they fix this basic issue.

I contrast this with the behaviour of Propellerhead who could not have been fairer with people who had already bought Record, and for whom I helped beta test Reason 6.5 and previous versions. One of the things I was testing was Rewiring with DP. I do not mind beta testing and am used to the concept - so would not expect a new software release to be without any bugs. But Propellerhead do not expect you to pay £160 to then beta test their product which then does not work and you have to wait many weeks for an update. With each bug report, they rewrite Reason, post a new version to download, and then you test it again. Sometimes there is an update each day - it is a bit of a chore as you have to download it - but that's part of volunteering. Then when they are satisfied all bugs have been addressed they put the upgrade/rewrite on sale.

The point is I can't do anymore with DP8 till they produce an update that works. Motu should consider doing what Propellerhead do with Beta testing - remember their product is both Apple and Windows. The Windows version of DP8 could be a bit of a PR disaster (hence the delay) . Beta testing (Propellerhead do it for about a month or slightly more) can help iron out a lot of pre-release problems - but they need to release a lot of incremental updates and do it much quicker. But it means less hassle for new users or those that don't want to beta test. I just object to having to pay £160 to do what I would do willingly for free. Yes I know its my fault for buying a .0 release and expecting it to work - I guess I thought they had tested it properly.

[FMiguelez]

I understand what you are saying, GG, and agree only to a degree.

I know, when one buys software one expects it to work. Period.
But lets also consider that DP is an extremely sophisticated program. It's not a spreadsheet or a Word processor that can only do a small set of things. Also, It would be rare that beta testers can try EVERY workflow and EVERY little thing you can do with DP.

Besides, we all know that most software is less than perfect in its .0 stage, and it gets progressively better as it reaches 0.1 or further, until it's practically perfect (like DP4.67 and DP7.24).
If MOTU's history has shown that, why would one be upset or surprised about it? What's the rush? Why get a .0 version instead of waiting a few weeks for an improved .1 release? Were things so bad in DP7.24 that people couldn't wait for DP8?

Also, consider the level of sophistication of a full blown DAW such as DP, against a little toy-like app such as Reason... You will probably hate this last comment, but that's the way I remember Reason from last time I used it (version 4 something).

My point is that a lot of members here were in such a hurry to see DP8 ready and out. Some other members insisted on letting MOTU do their thing without pressure and letting them take as long as they needed to test things properly, but we were overwhelmed... just look at the amount of angry threads about DP "being shamefully late".
Well, this is what happens, so for all those who INSISTED and whined about DP taking too long to be released, well, you've got it. LIVE with it or wait for an improved version!

[Killahurts]

Besides, we all know that most software is less than perfect in its .0 stage, and it gets progressively better as it reaches 0.1 or further, until it's practically perfect (like DP4.67 and DP7.24).
If MOTU's history has shown that, why would one be upset or surprised about it? What's the rush? Why get a .0 version instead of waiting a few weeks for an improved .1 release? Were things so bad in DP7.24 that people couldn't wait for DP8?

I honestly thought that DP8 would be rock solid, because of all the time it took from its announcement to the release. And Windows DP, not even out yet? Well, Windows 8 is released this month, and that could explain a delay, but still..

I was able to try DP8 for a few weeks before having to (painstakingly) go back to DP7. But now that I've been back working on 7.24, I realize that I could go a long time this way.. it's the most solid and reliable DAW I've ever worked on. Fantastically mature software. I couldn't go to 64 bit yet anyway, because of UAD and some other stuff, so why not stay here a bit longer?

I know DP8 will be just as great, after a few updates. Rewriting code from the ground up is hard, but it had to be done, so good on MOTU for biting the bullet. How long it will take before DP8 is as solid and reliable as 7.24 is anyone's guess, given that the application has grown so large, and the Mac OS is a moving target.

[Guitar Gaz]

Also, consider the level of sophistication of a full blown DAW such as DP, against a little toy-like app such as Reason... You will probably hate this last comment, but that's the way I remember Reason from last time I used it (version 4 something).

I don't hate your comment but you are not really correct about Reason - version 4 is way different from 6.5 Reason which is a full blown DAW with sophisticated audio recording and sound producing features. You should check it out before making that sort of comment as you might change your mind. I am not keen on the sequencer having been used to Vision and then DP. But the new Reason has many fans - and with Blocks (the equivalent of Chunks - or sequences as we used to call them in Vision days) you have the ability to work with different sections and to bring them together in a complete song. That was not there in Reason 4, nor the new addition of third party plug ins called Rack Extensions. Anyhow - that is for you to find out. It is certainly not toy like - that is an ignorant comment which makes you sound a bit silly - I sure you are much more intelligent than that.

However the point I was making was about the process of Beta testing - Propellerhead have a different inclusive attitude to its registered user base. Motu could learn something from this. Why release a version not properly tested and which doesn't work (for Reason Rewirers like myself)? Rather than bow to some perceived pressure from users to release early (I don't believe that for a moment) they should have enabled volunteers to beta test like Propellerhead do. I have been waiting for a proper response for over 2 weeks to something that should have been tested - other than the implied suggestion that it is something I am doing or that something is wrong with my setup. It is not good enough - I have paid for some software that doesn't work - it is no excuse that it is an .0 version. I still can't use it - I can't even beta test it further as I don't get past stage one for longer than a few minutes. I can't help comparing Propellerhead's attitude with Motu who have my money and have left me feeling a little cheated. I would gladly test for them - and make the extra effort to do this - but instead its 3 weeks since getting DP8 and I can't do anything with it.

[FMiguelez]

So are you saying there's really not much difference between Reason and DP in terms of what they can do?

According to their forum's Reason Wish-List, it doesn't even have markers, or even something that resembles a score editor, etc... I went through the last 4 pages of that thread and it really looks extremely underwhelming (in terms of what it can do). Based on that list, I could not do half the things I need every single day... (and their forum is not all sunshine, rainbows and lollipops either, as it clearly shows, BTW).

Does Reason have all the Film Scoring capabilities, Tempo map building/Conductor track (all the advanced methods and different techniques), MIDI/Audio editing with its myriad of commands and tools, etc.?

I don't doubt Reason is fine for writing a song or making some kewl beats, but I could not see myself producing a full orchestral score using that thing. And it's not ignorance or silliness, as you called it (and there's no need for name-calling or personal attacks either). That's just the way I remember it when I used it... its soundbanks, particularly the orchestral ones, were a joke, its workflow was crippling, and its GUI, while different and exciting at first, quickly became an annoyance, and apparently, it has not changed much in those departments.
My Reason box has been sitting forgotten and abandoned in the studio's storage place for years, where it belongs (for me).

If Reason has improved, then good for them. But comparing it to DP is rather naive and shortsighted. However, I admit Propellerhead came up with some neat stuff when it came out, and it markets to certain demographic successfully.

Anyway. I guess discussing this kind of thing is even sillier by you and I, so I suggest just leaving it at that and concentrate on your real issue, which is you being unpleased about DP8's bugs and lack of prime-time readiness in its current freshly released form.

I agree with you that my comment about MOTU being "pressured" by us was not the case at all, but what is true is that we always have this exact same cycle (of demanding MOTU to hurry and then complaining) around here at every major DP release, would you not agree? It happens every single time.

Also, for those who are so disappointed with DP8, what's so terrible about going back to your previous system clone (which contains DP7.x), and use it for a few more weeks? That takes no longer than a few minutes to do! (I doubt any professional who is serious about his music and his studio would blindly skip that crucial step).

Things are what they are, and no amount of complaining will change that.

[Antonio]

I've been following this discussion and my opinion is that a comparison between DP and Reason is pointless. They are different programs and serve different purposes. Period.
The discussion should concentrate rather on why MOTU has released a major upgrade that simply does not work with Reason, a major disappointment for those of us who sometimes use both in tandem and a major flaw from a company that had its Rewire act together as of v7.24.

[FMiguelez]

I've been following this discussion and my opinion is that a comparison between DP and Reason is pointless. They are different programs and serve different purposes. Period.

It IS pointless, I agree, but the reason (!) I engaged in that dialog with Guitar Gaz was because I felt his comparison between both companies needed to be challenged.

The discussion should concentrate rather on why MOTU has released a major upgrade that simply does not work with Reason, a major disappointment for those of us who sometimes use both in tandem and a major flaw from a company that had its Rewire act together as of v7.24.

But will it make any difference? The reasons as to why MOTU released DP8 as it is can not be more than mere speculation from us and it won't magically make things change and work perfectly.

Show me ONE DAW whose .0 release, after a MAJOR and from-the-ground-up rewrite, is perfect and works flawlessly for everybody. Please do so.

Also, can someone please tell me what the point of speculating and whining about DP8 being less than perfect is?
Wouldn't it be more constructive for everyone to just concentrate on the things that need revision, so MOTU can tackle them in their next version? Something concise and simple, probably in list form...

Also, my last question from my post above has not been addressed... why don't you guys simply go back to your previous system clone and work with it for a few more weeks while MOTU releases their revised version? You are not loosing any money, and we all know DP8 will be where we all want it to be. Just let them iron out the bugs and improve it even more.

I really think that this releasing new versions business is MUCH MORE complicated than anyone of us believes.

Besides, let us remember that when MOTU corrects a .0 version, it usually not only corrects the few bugs that went by them, but they also ADD lots of new features, just like it happened with every 7.x revision... Remember all those "What's new in DP7.1, DP7,21", etc?

So Antonio, please answer my question about that PERFECT flawless DAW you are talking about. Can you provide even one example for us?

[Guitar Gaz]

I've been following this discussion and my opinion is that a comparison between DP and Reason is pointless. They are different programs and serve different purposes. Period.
The discussion should concentrate rather on why MOTU has released a major upgrade that simply does not work with Reason, a major disappointment for those of us who sometimes use both in tandem and a major flaw from a company that had its Rewire act together as of v7.24.

Absolutely - the main point I was making about the approach of Motu when compared with another company like Propellerhead to a major update/rewrite of their app. FMiguelez decided to call Reason a toy like app which it isn't and turn the debate into whether DP is superior to Reason. That misses the point. It is more to do with why an update/rewrite has been released which doesn't work properly. Motu have since agreed there is a problem today to me in their tech link reply.

I use DP with Reason for the sound modules. Of course DP is a deeper DAW in many ways than Reason - it doesn't mean that it isn't possible to test it properly before release.

I was not comparing DP with Reason! But I was defending it as not being a toy (and his comments are not even based on the latest version 6.5 which he has no knowledge of). I was actually comparing the approach of both companies to major software releases and beta testing. If anyone had actually tried DP8 with Reason properly they would have experienced crashes in both 32 and 64 bit. Propellerhead have a different and I think better approach to software releases. Seeing as I have paid for the software I am allowed to suggest that I think another company handles software releases better than Motu.

Anyhow - I am sure they will sort it out eventually - they have to.

[Guitar Gaz]

Also, my last question from my post above has not been addressed... why don't you guys simply go back to your previous system clone and work with it for a few more weeks while MOTU releases their revised version? You are not loosing any money, and we all know DP8 will be where we all want it to be. Just let them iron out the bugs and improve it even more.

I really think that this releasing new versions business is MUCH MORE complicated than anyone of us believes.

I have already said I can't use DP8 and have gone back to 7.24 - your last question didn't need addressing! If someone said to you "give me $200 for a piece of software - but by the way it won't work properly for 2 or 3 months" you would think that's okay? Is that a good way to do business? Sorry if that is critical of Motu....

[FMiguelez]

I was not comparing DP with Reason! But I was defending it as not being a toy (and his comments are not even based on the latest version 6.5 which he has no knowledge of).

I may not have direct knowledge of its current incarnation because I don't use it anymore, but you obviously did not read my post above where I explain how I took the time to look at their Reason 7 wish-list...
BASED ON THAT, it's pretty obvious I couldn't do even half the things I do with DP on a daily basis, and that is why I called it a toy-like app, which, from my perspective, workflow and feature needs, is totally accurate and correct.

I was actually comparing the approach of both companies to major software releases and beta testing. If anyone had actually tried DP8 with Reason properly they would have experienced crashes in both 32 and 64 bit. Propellerhead have a different and I think better approach to software releases. Seeing as I have paid for the software I am allowed to suggest that I think another company handles software releases better than Motu.

Well, you are comparing both companies' approach, so that naturally invited the challenge... Please remember that they are totally different companies, targeted at different markets, with a totally different line of products, etc.

But anyway. If your REAL point is simply that PH handles beta-testing and new release versions better than MOTU, you could be right.
And my point was that, if the above is true, then the current situation it is natural and to be expected, since the level of sophistication and features of both programs is really different (and that's how and why we got engaged in this discussion).
It is like comparing Mac's Text with Microsoft's Word. They both allow you to write papers, but their feature-set can not be compared, and beta-testing one is much easier than the other, since there are only x number of things to be tested in the former as opposed to 10000 things on the latter, that's all.

But it's all cool, Guitar Gaz! We just see things differently. All I'm asking is to make all these MOTU critiques in a more constructive fashion. For instance, if you really like PH's way of handling these things, you could write a letter to MOTU explaining your points and "advising them" to have a closer look at what PH does. Who knows? They may listen to you...

[FMiguelez]

Also, my last question from my post above has not been addressed... why don't you guys simply go back to your previous system clone and work with it for a few more weeks while MOTU releases their revised version? You are not loosing any money, and we all know DP8 will be where we all want it to be. Just let them iron out the bugs and improve it even more.

I really think that this releasing new versions business is MUCH MORE complicated than anyone of us believes.

I have already said I can't use DP8 and have gone back to 7.24 - your last question didn't need addressing! If someone said to you "give me $200 for a piece of software - but by the way it won't work properly for 2 or 3 months" you would think that's okay? Is that a good way to do business? Sorry if that is critical of Motu....

Agreed.

But the other more sensible option, especially for people who don't want to take chances, is to simply wait 2-3 more months and THEN pay for the upgrade (once it is revised). There's no rush, is there?

[Guitar Gaz]

But it's all cool, Guitar Gaz! We just see things differently. All I'm asking is to make all these MOTU critiques in a more constructive fashion. For instance, if you really like PH's way of handling these things, you could write a letter to MOTU explaining your points and "advising them" to have a closer look at what PH does. Who knows? They may listen to you...

Yes it is cool - no problem. And I have expressed my opinions to Motu about beta testing and comparing it with Propellerhead. Propellerhead are actually quite a cool company - the beta testing has helped them enormously for free - and ensured a relatively bug free product going on sale. I think Motu could do the same. Lets get back to the music!

[bayswater]

Show me ONE DAW whose .0 release, after a MAJOR and from-the-ground-up rewrite, is perfect and works flawlessly for everybody. Please do so.

Obviously there is no such thing. Any company that tested a product long enough to eliminate all the bugs would be out of business because their products would be long obsolete before they got to the market. DP 7.24 is not flawless either.

Seems to me that a lot of the complaints are a result of violated expectations. E.g., I don't know who said we would be able to run DP 7 and 8 on the same partition with no cross effects, but a lot of the discussion is about all the ways this doesn't work.

MP3 exports: a lot of discussion to get LAME re-established, but the solution was in the manual.

Same with plugins; no one said there would be support for 32 bits and a lot of the discussion is on workarounds.

Even the things that appear to be bugs or bad coding, like the keyboard issue, or slow graphics, or more CPU load are not happening to everyone (none of them happening here). A few people reported that window sets don't resolve consistently. That happened to me in 7.24 but doesn't in 8.

In fact, other than having to host a few 32 bit VIs in DSP Quattro (but not effects which all work well in jBridgeM), DP 8 is at least as good as 7.24 for me, and actually feels a little smoother, and keep the fans below audible levels on my iMac longer. (I've orders 16G RAM to get that even better). No crashes in 11 days. Not even those mysterious crashes you always get with a new app, that never happen again.

All this says DP 8 performance depends a lot on your setup, and unless MOTU was able to test DP 8 on hundreds of setups, the problems were inevitable. I think this reasonably accounts for the delay in the Windows version where the variations in systems are infinitely greater than the variations in Macs.

BUT, I would agree with Gaz, that if the Rewire/Reason problem is general, and not specific to his setup, this is an oversight on MOTU's part. Should have been on the critical error list and resolved.

[FMiguelez]

I'd LOVE to beta-test for MOTU!!!!

I'd do it for free too. If MOTU does well with DP, then that's good for me because my bread and butter program works better and I can keep making a living aided greatly by it!

Or perhaps I should get DP8 to get into the free beta-testing program?