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Yikes,

My attempts to avoid a religious war have failed. Apologies all around.

I had hoped my carefully worded disdain for Windows would dull the spear tips, but I failed to factor in the fervency of the Apple sect.

To recap:

• I will probably go Apple again
• Not a Windows fanboy
• Loss of audio files on OSX was arbitrary and capricious. If it was user error (and given my exclusive use of the Mac as only a DAW, it's hard to see how I could delete audio files irrecovably and unwittingly), then it was insidious enough that I'd be scared on that point alone.
• Wintel hardware is cheaper, if significantly less elegant.
• Not to sound obnoxious, but I manage an IT shop for 1,200+ Windows machines (platform dictated by application availability, not some profound architectural philosophies), so I'm fairly familiar with the adequacies and vulnerabilities of Windows

I'm mostly excited by the DP on Windows capitulation, since some of my collaborators are Windows nuts, but love DP better than their Windows DAWware (Sonar, I'm talking to YOU). They are already looking for a competitive upgrade price to ditch Sonar for DP. And having a broader user base is nothing but goodness from my perspective. If it slows development cycles, I ain't too worried, since DP is so damn feature rich. If it slows bug fixes, well, that could be a bit of a drag.

Can we still be friends?

Hi Michael - to alleviate some concerns on the slave you are considering, I haven't had any problems in quite a few years of running slaves. I also know many other composers using i7 PCs for slaves. Win7 is incredibly stable, and very easy with install of interfaces, libraries, VEPro, MidiOverLan, etc.

For quick comparison: The MacPro starts with a quad xeon for $2500. However, you can build an i7 for around $1100 that will have similar performance to a $2500 MacPro - that's where the biggest disparity is at the moment (and options for an i5 or Q95xx quad, etc). You can build two with 8-16G for less than the cost of a dual xeon MacPro with 8G.

From what I've been told by a high end tech, the main differences between a xeon and comparable i7 chip are power consumption, heat dissipation, and the xeon is a server chip/multi-cpu capable, which are the reasons why Apple uses it in the MacPros.

Comparing xeons to xeons, the prices are closer, not factoring in AppleCare/maintenance contracts. But you have to go to a dual quad xeon to gain the benefit of the xeon platform, and that cost is more than two i7 PCs (if considering slave options; for a host a dual xeon makes more sense). You can build a dual xeon for a bit less than a MacPro. But that cost can be closer if you don't buy extra memory or drives from Apple since their add-on prices are at a very high markup.

For the money at the moment for a slave system, I personally think the i7 PC is the best buy/build. But it isn't an option on the Apple side beyond the MacMini (or iMac), which has some notable limitations as a slave system.

I've never seen issues with driver/card install problems on many different systems over the years - RME, Lynx, Avid, MOTU, etc - but for some cards, I'm not surprised you ran into problems. That isn't common in my experience, and is usually an issue with the manufacturer's installer or drivers, not Windows (XP or 7; Vista was more problematic for some, though I never had any issues).

I'm not trying to imply in anyway that Windows is perfect - just that there are tradeoffs both ways. One has to weigh the options for their own needs and preferences. Considerations for a slave systems are also a bit different than for a main/single host system. Don't let my comments convince you to buy a PC if you really don't want to.

kdm wrote: Comparing xeons to xeons, the prices are closer, not factoring in AppleCare/maintenance contracts. But you have to go to a dual quad xeon to gain the benefit of the xeon platform, and that cost is more than two i7 PCs (if considering slave options; for a host a dual xeon makes more sense). You can build a dual xeon for a bit less than a MacPro. But that cost can be closer if you don't buy extra memory or drives from Apple since their add-on prices are at a very high markup.

Yeah you pretty much make the same point I did, that Apple aren't that far off from PC makers anymore, though the low end Xeon Mac Pros are overpriced and buying extra hard drives and RAM from Apple isn't a good idea.
The roll your own PCs will always be the cheapest way to get the most, and it's one reason I always wished Apple allowed you to use their OS without their hardware. My biggest hassle Slave PC wise would be that I have three different audio editing and filing programs that are Mac only, DSP Quattro, ProManager and Audio Finder. ProManager is a sampler linking utility, useful for Kontakt files etc. and definitely it would be useful on a slave machine as well.

It's just easier to stay with a single system. Plus I'm doing everything on a really old laptop at this point. If I can afford it I'll go with a Mac Pro, if I can't I'll build a PC with a PC building friend.

On Monkeys comment on plugs, I would be pleased if they just rewrote the outdated dynamics plug so it doesn't crash. Looking forward to the 64bit thing.

Also, wondering how they will handle pricing for mac users who don't plan a PC future. I still have issues with automation updates of VI return audio. I don't want to buy anything motu until thats solved for me.

I use the dynamics plug all the time and don't think I've ever had a crash from it.

Same here. Can you replicate it and file a bug report?

bayswater wrote:Same here. Can you replicate it and file a bug report?

Nope. It's a random crash, but, when it happens to me I'm adjusting a parameter or closing it.
It's the only plug left to crash DP for me.

Does anyone know if DP8 will have any features to assist with hardware interfacing. I mean ADC on physical outputs [i.e. signal going to an aux - which may have some plugs on it it's self?].

I know this can all be monitored ok with CueMix but I usually have to end up lining something up in the sequence window.

If they don't - that's a bit of a problem. I think the platform now (which I quite like and it is fastest for me) should be able to incorporate hardware into the platform seamlessly.

CC

conleycd wrote:Does anyone know if DP8 will have any features to assist with hardware interfacing. I mean ADC on physical outputs [i.e. signal going to an aux - which may have some plugs on it it's self?].

I know this can all be monitored ok with CueMix but I usually have to end up lining something up in the sequence window.

If they don't - that's a bit of a problem. I think the platform now (which I quite like and it is fastest for me) should be able to incorporate hardware into the platform seamlessly.

CC

Not quite following you, what do you think could improve in the software to interface hardware? are you talking hardware synths and FX? DP8 and Cuemix are different programs.

Again what are you needing from DP8 that you're not currently thinking is smooth etc.? the only thing I could think of is some other DAWs have 'external' delay compensation...

Hi all. Back to the topic of DP and Windows ...

Personally I'm really excited about this. MOTU can now better leverage their great hardware by offering PC users a complementary software solution as well.

This should create some healthy competition and innovation in the PC audio world, which has been somewhat stagnant (ASIO, anyone?)

There are certainly challenges with audio on Windows, but the good news is that versions of Windows are long-lasting. Windows 7 will be supported for a long time. Windows 8 will run everything Windows 7 can. Users will likely not face challenges like PPC --> Intel or Tiger --> Leopard

Lastly, MOTU gets a new market and a fresh start for DP, instead of slowly losing market share to Logic (despite DP's high quality).