MOTUnation.com

Varispeed is undetectable for the tone deaf, so I don't really understand what the heck we are arguing about.

jloeb wrote: We live in an era when the Gorrilaz (entirely a production act) have top selling albums, and time only flows in one direction as far as I can tell….

Archies, Monkees, Partridge Family, Banana Splits, Milli Vanilli, there’s a pretty long list from the 60’s on.

bb

stephentayler wrote:I must be in the wrong forum

I'd be surprised if the childish pictures and comments weren't removed shortly and as a moderator, I apologize to those who have viewed them. If I had the power to remove them myself I would.

Whether you approve of varispeed and other manipulations or not, responding with vulgar gestures and words is unacceptable and speaks volumes about the poster. Perhaps he will see the error of his ways, do the adult thing and edit the post himself. Maybe not. Maybe he will let it sit there until it (and perhaps he) is removed from the group.

Oh, and I suspect this topic is due to be moved to the off topic area as well... <sigh>

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Oh, and I suspect this topic is due to be moved to the off topic area as well... <sigh>

Well, before that happens, let me just mention an important use of varispeed. I got a track that was recorded on an old Yamaha piano. For some reason it was tuned about a quarter step sharp. Using a varispeed tape it was easy to bring it down to pitch with minimal artifact and it saved us all sorts of headaches recording the other tracks. Because of time constraints, there was no way to re-do the piano performance. This was all about time and money and had nothing to do with artistic preferences. Sometimes you just have to take care of business.

Phil

It's a tool, folks. It's not always to "fix" something (whether you agree or not that such fixing is "dishonest"). You might as well say the same thing about a distortion pedal.

Example: tape machine varispeed was a major part of Mike Oldfield's guitar effects in Tubular Bells (tape slowed to half and then doubled another guitar track recorded at normal speed). Can you do the same thing today with an octave divider? Well, maybe. You have your choice of tonality there.

Give you another more personal example- back in 1986 I recorded the Bay Area band The Gone Jackals. One track on their debut album was played just beautifully and we got great drum tracks. When we came in the next week we found the flaw in the performance- it was just too damn fast, by 10 BPM if I remember, quite a lot. The tracking setup had already been struck and the budget did not allow another.

We took the Studer A-80 and slowed it down until the feel was right, then overdubbed the guitar and bass so the song would still be in the right key. We ended up with a track at the right speed, in the right key, and an amazing side benefit- the drum track got HUGE, like it was a 17" x 8" snare or something. We would NEVER have gotten that sound without having varispeed available.

I found varispeed exceedingly useful when I was coming up recording in analog. Tape style varispeed would continue to be a useful in any DAW and I would love to see it properly implemented in DP (IMO best done through manipulation of sample rate).

You don't want to use it, guess what, you don't have to.

ghobish wrote:It's a tool, folks. It's not always to "fix" something (whether you agree or not that such fixing is "dishonest"). You might as well say the same thing about a distortion pedal.

Example: tape machine varispeed was a major part of Mike Oldfield's guitar effects in Tubular Bells (tape slowed to half and then doubled another guitar track recorded at normal speed). Can you do the same thing today with an octave divider? Well, maybe. You have your choice of tonality there.

Give you another more personal example- back in 1986 I recorded the Bay Area band The Gone Jackals. One track on their debut album was played just beautifully and we got great drum tracks. When we came in the next week we found the flaw in the performance- it was just too damn fast, by 10 BPM if I remember, quite a lot. The tracking setup had already been struck and the budget did not allow another.

We took the Studer A-80 and slowed it down until the feel was right, then overdubbed the guitar and bass so the song would still be in the right key. We ended up with a track at the right speed, in the right key, and an amazing side benefit- the drum track got HUGE, like it was a 17" x 8" snare or something. We would NEVER have gotten that sound without having varispeed available.

I found varispeed exceedingly useful when I was coming up recording in analog. Tape style varispeed would continue to be a useful in any DAW and I would love to see it properly implemented in DP (IMO best done through manipulation of sample rate).

You don't want to use it, guess what, you don't have to.

Well said.

I love your business logo, a guy about to smash something with a Rickenbacher bass. That is a frightening prospect.

mrbillet wrote:Well said.

I love your business logo, a guy about to smash something with a Rickenbacher bass. That is a frightening prospect.

Been using that logo since I was the bass player in the early 1980s Berkeley avant-garage band The Jars, where I was known as Armin Hammer...

ghobish wrote:
Give you another more personal example- back in 1986 I recorded the Bay Area band The Gone Jackals. One track on their debut album was played just beautifully and we got great drum tracks. When we came in the next week we found the flaw in the performance- it was just too damn fast, by 10 BPM if I remember, quite a lot. The tracking setup had already been struck and the budget did not allow another.

We took the Studer A-80 and slowed it down until the feel was right, then overdubbed the guitar and bass so the song would still be in the right key. We ended up with a track at the right speed, in the right key, and an amazing side benefit- the drum track got HUGE, like it was a 17" x 8" snare or something. We would NEVER have gotten that sound without having varispeed available…

When I was working in studios with tape, before computers, that exact scenario probably happened to at least 1 song on almost every album I saw. The funny thing is it still faster to do it that way and often sounds better. Most albums had at least a song, if not several, that had the speed of the whole track changed by the time mastering came around, either before the overdubs or even after the whole thing was done. Check how many songs you have that aren’t tuned to A=440. When I was a kid I thought it was because they were being clever.

bb

Why does everyone get to quote except me? I want to quote…

bb

bongo_x wrote:Why does everyone get to quote except me? I want to quote…

bb

Do you have HTML turned off for your account somehow?

jloeb wrote:

bongo_x wrote:Why does everyone get to quote except me? I want to quote…

bb

Do you have HTML turned off for your account somehow?

Not that I can see, I went through all my board setting and hit reset and submit again.

bb

Hey, it worked. Funny, because none of the settings changed. Computers.

Okay... we ARE getting off track here. Harley... I think you can make your point but it is straying into another area. I know I introduced it. I think varispeed as an effect to create a particular timbre is just fine. But we're talking about inclusion of a feature here. Varispeed is simply a tool that is inherently neither good nor evil. Depending on your viewpoint, much good as well as much evil has been done with it. If politics weren't off-limits I could apply that same argument elsewhere. Varispeed doesn't kill people... people kill people. And I will support an amendment to the MOTUNATION constitution guaranteeing your right to keep and bear varispeed.

To wit:

A well regulated power supply, being necessary to the productivity of a free DAW, the right of the people to keep and bear varispeed, shall not be infringed.

But seriously, Harley, it is a genre thing. You're free to have your opinions about these things, but no need to belittle others. And I'll just make it clear to everyone that my personal beliefs align with Harley's in many areas, but I'm not going to get in someone's face if they use varispeed to play a guitar solo that they couldn't possibly play themselves up to tempo. I'll do what most hard rock and metal musicians normally do and that is to snicker and make disparaging comments behind the player's back if that sort of scandalous information were to come out. That's why no hard rock / metal guitar players in their dreams would dare risk using studio tricks to deceive the public into thinking they had chops that they don't. But again... "musicianship" is a big thing, believe it or not in the metal/hard rock world. Yeah... a lot of guys can't sight read or even read music and there's all kinds of jokes: "How do you make a metal guitarist stop playing? Put sheet music in front of him." But nonetheless, even those players can have frighteningly scary chops and it's a badge of honor and among metal/hard rock musicians, you can think a guy is a total dick, but there is respect and recognition for talent. Same I imagine is true for jazz musicians. There were guys who were notorious jerks... very little in the way of social graces... but they were considered minor deities because when they picked up their horn or ax, there was no disputing it.

Metal is a genre where a premium is placed on skill. And the fans generally all dabble in guitar themselves. Perhaps that might be the key. At a pop concert you're not likely to have a room made up of 50-60% musicians. A metal concert half of the black T-shirt clad early 20-somethings play guitar and if they're not so easy to impress. And if the fan base discovers that you played your ripping fast solo by slowing it down and then speeding it up later, you have committed a grave sin and are a total loser in their eyes. Metal message boards around the world would light up with thread after thread about what a loser you are and you could bet your sales would tank as well.

I digress. It is about genre. And it's about what someone is personally comfortable with. Hey... drum replacement? I have no problem with that. The guy actually played the part and maybe decided the kick sounded bad and it wasn't recorded well. Who cares? Also by the same token, with so many acts being indy, it's the musician's responsibility to care about budget. At a certain point, it's just plain stupid to do more takes rather than use the one that's 99% perfect and just fix the one string bend that was just a tiny bit flat.

Hey... what someone does with varispeed in the privacy of their own studio is not for MOTUNATION to legislate.

bongo_x wrote:I don’t think there is a good way. Drives me crazy, such a simple function and apparently everyone’s forgotten how to do it. It’s ridiculous, actually.

bb

There's this guy, named Guy actually, a great recordist in Connecticut, and he really nailed the effect of what a 2" machine sounded like when you turned off the motors but not the preamps. And he did it in DP! I asked him (it was on a Hilly Michaels record) how he did it, and he said he just DREW IT IN ON THE PITCH DISPLAY in Sequence Editor!!! I tried it a few times, but didn't get such excellent results. (yet.)

I too would really like a big knob which you can turn, to do Virtual Varispeed (hey there's a cool name for the new feature, Dave!!! VirtualVarispeed.) like on a tape machine. Without having to resort to external clocking, although I appreciate that idea as well.

tommymandel wrote:

bongo_x wrote:I don’t think there is a good way. Drives me crazy, such a simple function and apparently everyone’s forgotten how to do it. It’s ridiculous, actually.

bb

There's this guy, named Guy actually, a great recordist in Connecticut, and he really nailed the effect of what a 2" machine sounded like when you turned off the motors but not the preamps. And he did it in DP! I asked him (it was on a Hilly Michaels record) how he did it, and he said he just DREW IT IN ON THE PITCH DISPLAY in Sequence Editor!!! I tried it a few times, but didn't get such excellent results. (yet.)

Did you turn off the PureDSP and Time Stretch options for the soundbites you wanted to re-pitch? This is one way tape-style Varispeed can be accomplished in DP..

Umbrella wrote: Did you turn off the PureDSP and Time Stretch options for the soundbites you wanted to re-pitch? This is one way tape-style Varispeed can be accomplished in DP..

I find that turning off the TimeStretch option just prevents a soundbite from being stretched. I have never ever - for instance - dropped the pitch of a soundbite by an octave, and had a halving of the speed (doubling of the length). Maybe I am driving myself crazy about this, but can anyone assure me that it can be done? What am I missing?

Cheers

Stephen