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Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:29 am
by Armageddon
Mr_Clifford wrote:bayswater wrote:Armageddon wrote:
On a sliding scale, 1-bit DSD comes closest to the fidelity of analog tape
What measures of fidelity would that entail? Why would you use analog tape as the benchmark? Did I make a huge mistake when I stopped using tape nearly 20 years ago?
Exactly. Let's not forget why they spent so much time and money developing digital in the first place.
Noise floor, wow, flutter, generational degredation, bias, tape stretch, bleed, print-through, tapehead wear, physical track limits (and we think Pro Tools LE is bad!)........
Note I did not say "dependability", I said "fidelity". The highest-quality HD video on the market doesn't have the resolution of 35mm film yet, either, so while the digital realm is getting closer and closer all the time ...
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:58 am
by bayswater
Armageddon wrote:Mr_Clifford wrote:bayswater wrote:
What measures of fidelity would that entail? Why would you use analog tape as the benchmark? Did I make a huge mistake when I stopped using tape nearly 20 years ago?
Exactly. Let's not forget why they spent so much time and money developing digital in the first place.
Noise floor, wow, flutter, generational degredation, bias, tape stretch, bleed, print-through, tapehead wear, physical track limits (and we think Pro Tools LE is bad!)........
Note I did not say "dependability", I said "fidelity". The highest-quality HD video on the market doesn't have the resolution of 35mm film yet, either, so while the digital realm is getting closer and closer all the time ...
I DID notice you said "fidelity". High Fidelity means accurate sound reproduction. Audio tape may give a pleasing sound to some, but accurate it is not.
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:04 am
by ngarjuna
Here's my question. From a thread on Gearslutz, the following question was posed:
I remember reading in one of Dan Lavry's white papers that many converters in fact actually exhibit less usable dynamic range at higher sample rates. Can anyone confirm this?
One reply was:
I can. I've tested several ADCs at different rates for my book. It all depends on the clock they use. A good ADC uses a fixed crystal clock to drive the sampling so it always runs at the same rate. To get different output sample rates, it has an internal SRC to change the sample rate to whatever you want. These kinds of converters exibit best performance at their highest output sample rates. A lot of ADCs use voltage controlled oscillators similar to the ones used in analogue synthesizers to create the clocks. Those converters use fixed DSP for all filtering etc and the actual clock itself if varied to get different sample rates. The oscillators have a certain amount of instability and the harder you push them, the more obvious it becomes. If you double the sample rate, the jitter, which in actuallity is constant, has double the influence on the signal. I can't get into the physics of it very well because I'm just learing about it myself. But one of the converters I tested yelded a 91dB S/N ratio at 24/96 but 94dB at 24/48. At 22.05K, you guessed it, 98dB. Another ADC I tested yielded 120dB S/N ratio regardless of the sample rate but SOUNDED cleaner at 96KHz, suggesting it used a fixed clock
So the question is: What information do we have about the clock and the oscillators and what not? What's the optimal sample rate
for specific MOTU converters if converters tend to have an optimal rate?
I admit some of the math is over my head, but when I read the Lavry white paper and his responses on many audio forums, it seems pretty clear that his message is that every converter is going to have a setting which is most designed to operate at; the question is what is that setting for MOTU_Piece_of_Gear. I'm not sure I have enough information yet to design a test to determine this, but I think this is the key to answering what is probably one of the most common questions in Prosumer digital audio.
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:48 pm
by zed
I use 48kHz for everything.
I did some comparisons of 44.1 and 48 a few years back and I could definitely hear a difference... enough so that I vowed I would never begin a project in 44.1 again.
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:24 pm
by mikehalloran
96K for video/film; 88.2K for CD
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:15 pm
by MIDI Life Crisis
...and when the CD actually gets made, the sample rate will be... 44.1
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:00 pm
by Radiogal
48 kHz/24 bit for audio..
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:23 pm
by zed
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:...and when the CD actually gets made, the sample rate will be... 44.1
But if you are going to master to analog tape (which I realize that not many people do anymore), I think the 48k session will make for a better quality analog master.
And one day not too far off, CDs will become obsolete and there will probably be a new standard and a format which accommodates the higher bit rate.
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:23 pm
by HLStudios
48kHz / 24-bit pretty much for everything...
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:34 pm
by MIDI Life Crisis
zed wrote:And one day not too far off, CDs will become obsolete and there will probably be a new standard and a format which accommodates the higher bit rate.
A cart waiting for a horse?
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:51 pm
by mhschmieder
Lots of good responses here, but I think the conclusion is the same as always, which is that there is no one correct answer that solves all problems.
In a way, it's a shame that the industry didn't just settle on one sample rate early on. It would make life simpler.
I am finding the "answer" gets more complicated with time, vs. less complicated.
This is due to the wide variation in "ideal" sampling rate for different hardware, software, and libraries.
The "answer" is slightly simpler for projects that will ONLY include live instruments vs. virtual instruments. Or to be more precise, since keyboards/modules might be considered live instruments, projects that have no MIDI tracks.
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:35 pm
by rodger1811
This is, and for many years has been a very interesting debate. I concur that higher sample rates do sound better but the fact of the matter is that until such time as the CD format changes universally, if ever, we're stuck with 44.1/16 as a final output resolution. I use to track at 88.2 all the time and without question it sounded better to me. However the additional space and horsepower required to do that versus the incremental increase in fidelity doesn't merit that course of action. Lets face it, 99% of anyone who hears our music is not going to be critical listener and therefore not likely to appreciate the ever so slight nuance of a ride cymbal that you'd get from a higher sample rate. The bottom line is that if you can't get an absolutely great recording at 44.1/24 then you're doing something wrong and you need to reevaluate your equipment or your chops.
Regards
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:55 pm
by SixStringGeek
HLStudios wrote:48kHz / 24-bit pretty much for everything...
Me too.
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:12 pm
by HCMarkus
Whatever frequency you use, don't forget to make sure your clock matches the rate set in DP. With external clocking, it is easy to forget to change the hardware clock rate, which results in some strange files. Mismatch issues can now be corrected within DP.
Re: Taking A Poll - 44.1kHz or 48kHz sessions?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:14 pm
by HCMarkus
PS: I am still looking for an inexpensive clock that allows vari-speed, a useful tool I miss very much from the days of Analog and ADAT. How much are the old black face ADATs these days anyway? EBay, here I come!