DP summing bus (thread on Gearslutz about how bad it is)

wurliuchi · Post by **wurliuchi** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:14 pm

We have to please ourselves (and clients, if applicable), do what's best and fitting for the songs, and hopefully that will please the listener. I never buy or use equipment or mix songs to please other engineers. Mainly because they have their own tools and style of mixing that they like, and I have mine. I don't want my mixes to sound like theirs. No matter how good their mixes are, mine can sound just as good (hopefully) but different (hopefully). One of my main irritations about today's music is that within the different genres everything is sounding the same as far as mixing and style goes. Everyone is copying everyone else. It's boring.

If someone wants to use an analog summing bus or prefers a particular DAW to mix in because it fits their ears and they think it sounds better, or that's what they're used to, that's great , go for it. But that doesn't mean it fits everyone. Find your own way. Find what works best for you. Find your own style. Try not to waste your time worrying about what others are using or saying.

quincyg · Post by **quincyg** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:19 pm

i gotta defend gearslutz as a board. the negativity is not very common and there are so many top notch professional posting that i think it is unwise to simply discount the opinions voiced there.

i just as frequently see attacks on this board. most recently in a thread about kontakt 3 and some apparent culturally insensitive remarks.

personally, my experience is anecdotal, but i do fell like dp is dull sounding compared to logic. i still use dp, because logic is a mess at the moment, but the sound of dp has been a major concern for me.

wheever · Post by **wheever** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:42 pm

pcm wrote: Gain structure is a dying art. Without proper gain structure, the sound audibly suffers.

Indeed.

But as James pointed out, those of us that grew up analog have some left over gain structure habits that are counter-productive. We all try gain stage everything to be as hot as possible for the sake of the noise floor.

All together now: "Use the meter bridge when you're mixing!"

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:50 pm

wheever wrote:
pcm wrote: Gain structure is a dying art. Without proper gain structure, the sound audibly suffers.
Indeed.

But as James pointed out, those of us that grew up analog have some left over gain structure habits that are counter-productive. We all try gain stage everything to be as hot as possible for the sake of the noise floor.

All together now: "Use the meter bridge when you're mixing!"

It must be working because I hear hardly any tape hiss in DP. Must be that outboard Dolby SR unit I picked up on eBay for $100.

kassonica · Post by **kassonica** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:34 pm

Wow and flutter seems pretty low too

except if your using logic

burn em · Post by **burn em** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:09 am

wheever wrote:
pcm wrote: Gain structure is a dying art. Without proper gain structure, the sound audibly suffers.
Indeed.

But as James pointed out, those of us that grew up analog have some left over gain structure habits that are counter-productive. We all try gain stage everything to be as hot as possible for the sake of the noise floor.

All together now: "Use the meter bridge when you're mixing!"

+1

Especially for bundles. The number of times I've had a drum group that didn't *look* like it was clipping, but was a clipping buss. The Drums sounded like they were clipping but the Drum channel was way under because there was a comp on it.

Timeline · Post by **Timeline** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:21 am

There was a comment about slamming the buss by one seasoned older engineer that really made sense to from the gearslt thread and all the rest was just bravado MOTU smearing.

The last comment about gain structure here was right on as well.

Sure, I would love to have a global selection of audio engines in a pulldown menu that would blow all this comparison stuff away and also global selections for pre summing fader channels.

In such a scenario:

My first would be MOTU the way it is now and then two ASIO or summing choices using various over sample methods and bit depths.

Then:

GLOBAL INDIVIDUAL CHANNEL MENU:

Automatic pk soft clip on every channel on-off
A really good tape emulator on-off.
A plug insert which would could be auto controlled from one instance to all faders.

BUT MOST NEEDED NOW: Pre-summing global trim +- 15 DB!!!!!!

pcm · Post by **pcm** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:09 am

quincyg wrote:i gotta defend gearslutz as a board. the negativity is not very common and there are so many top notch professional posting that i think it is unwise to simply discount the opinions voiced there.

.

I think gearsluts is the best general engineering board on the web. You just need to keep your bs detector turned on at all times, like any other website.

dogBoy · Post by **dogBoy** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:32 am

I was a bit unhappy about one poster who slammed this board a bit... eunich horn nation? Geez... perhaps he's using his DAW as a form of compensating? Dunno.

That's pretty funny. "eunich horn nation" ah those hi clear bell tones.... purity.

That coming from a board called GearSlultz.... "Pisst, I'll give you a BJ for that JoeMeek compressor"
Ah, all in good fun. That board can be very informative, always snarky and sometimes entertaining.

NEXT.....

With the right Headroom you can make spacious mixes.
Slam it, things get dense real quick.

I wish the DP faders had a different volume curve: subtler on the bottom of the fader, (a different logarithmic curve?) So I could bring up the fader and have more control over the quieter DB range. Most of the time (in a denser mix) the fader is way down at the bottom of its throw.
----
KUBI: thanks for straightening out the panning issue.
For a second there I thought I didn't understand, something I understood.
----
In the old days when I was starting out I was able to mix on an SSL. I don't know how to get that richer/spacious sound OTB.
There again the SSL costs, I think... a-lot!!! I do like my UltraLite but I don't think it's in the same league.
----
I have been able to make a bad mix on very good equipment and a good mix on bad equipment.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:46 am

pcm wrote:I think gearsluts is the best general engineering board on the web. You just need to keep your bs detector turned on at all times, like any other website.

Thank you for the free advertisement, pcm!

Sales have taken off, but in case anyone didn't know, the MonkeyLabs 8bit BS Detector•„• is on special at the moment.

Don T · Post by **Don T** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:43 am

Ok,
So I've decided to task my students with a summing bus test. Would it be logical to sum through 5 consecutive busses a few times at different levels approaching zero db and record the result? Matching levels in the final stage then invert and sum the original?

Latency issues will also manifest itself as distortion and show up.

Would it make sense to sum multiple, identical tracks then invert and sum the result for the null test?

stiefelmusik · Post by **stiefelmusik** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:40 am

quincyg wrote:i gotta defend gearslutz as a board. the negativity is not very common and there are so many top notch professional posting that i think it is unwise to simply discount the opinions voiced there.

i just as frequently see attacks on this board. most recently in a thread about kontakt 3 and some apparent culturally insensitive remarks.

Just for the record, that remark in the Kontakt thread was intended as a joke.

In any case, I agree, there are many intelligent, well-informed people who post over at Gearslutz. No question about it. Whenever I'm doing online research into a potential gear purchase, I usually check out Gearslutz -- but not until AFTER I've made my decision, just to see how badly it gets dissed.

Once my order for a new MonkeyLabs 8bit BS Detector•„• is processed I might start hanging out at Gearslutz more often.

David Helpling · Post by **David Helpling** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:44 am

I will post a 24 bit mix of a track (summed in DP) and then the same exact track sent to the MixDream and recorded back in on a stereo track and you guys can end any debate...this is not science it's just the difference between a good analog mix and a mediocre software emulation of. I can't explain it but it sure sounds drastically better to me...something about the infinite resolution domain of analog?

David Helpling · Post by **David Helpling** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:07 am

kwiz wrote:David,

Your music reel snippets sound great!
I use a Dangerous Music 2 bus LT for summing, were your reel snippets summed through your SPL Mixdream?

The reels on my site contain a bunch of different tracks cross-faded together - some of them were mixed before (summed in DP) and some were mixed through the MixDream...I have a new reel posted at the link below (Thriller/Horror/Fear) that was all mixed through the MixDream (mostly):

http://www.icommag.com/directory-origin ... osers.html

pcm · Post by **pcm** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:59 am

David Helpling wrote:I will post a 24 bit mix of a track (summed in DP) and then the same exact track sent to the MixDream and recorded back in on a stereo track and you guys can end any debate...this is not science it's just the difference between a good analog mix and a mediocre software emulation of. I can't explain it but it sure sounds drastically better to me...something about the infinite resolution domain of analog?

What is your method for zeroing out each channel? Have you fed each mix thru a peak-hold meter that registers down to .1dB? How are you sure this is apples to apples?

This very much IS science. You might want to go to the 3D Audio site and see what they did before they ran their tests (the DAW SUM CD). Anything less than that is likely delusional.