Virtual Pianos vs. Real Piano: which is which?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

There's just no winning with this on one level--- and yet what we discover is that we all have very expensive taste at the end of the day.

Clearly, it is a matter of taste and priorities. The engineer might want the mics at 10' while the pianist wants them at 10" (or visa versa). Similarly, one person loves the 1 bit Deutsche Gramophone recording of Tchaikovsky's 6th conducted by von Karajan with it's super close mic'ing on every instrument, while the next person just adores the NBC Symphony version in mono with Toscanini at the helm.

The bigger problem in a discussion like this one- as I see it - is that some are trying to look at the roots of the trees and never get to the flowers. They over analyze the instruments in every detail of the overtones and start to ignore the less definable aspects of the instrument, such as 'character.' In the provided examples, the first thing I noticed was the sustain of the bass notes on the acoustic. This is by far the most telling aspect of a sampled piano. Samples (as you well know) loop a note and then provide a ADSR envelope which only lasts a short while. A good grand piano can have a decay in the bass that is measures in minutes! The next thing that stands out (as pointed out by many here) is the sympathetic vibration of other strings. But wait, there's more. No one seems to mention voicing. The felts of piano hammers respond differently to gradations of strikes that great pianists articulate in a scale that goes roughly from 1-100. We're not talking simple "velocity" as the strike doesn't just affect the volume. The strike also effects the tone in very complex ways. This also effects how much the cabinet resonates. Similar things happen in other acoustic instruments, making the argument for "nearly perfect" sampled instruments something only electronic musicians see worth arguing about. For all there may be many sound layers in the VI, there is a finite set of sounds available to work from.

The fact of the matter is that it is the imperfections of tone that create the individual character of an instrument. Put another way, it is the variation of the tone that makes each acoustic piano unique. Each VI is identical and ultimately bore this listener.

I hear the counter arguments in my head already: Yes, but the instrument is critical. As a former piano technician and once and always a pianist (starting somewhere between the ages of 3 and 4 years) I totally understand the need for a great instrument. But from my perspective, what I play or compose if of far greater importance to me than the instrument I use. Sure, it still has to be a great instrument to play what I need.

The CPU between my ears is wired more towards the notes and the performance than the partials and overtones of this VI or that. I'll have to let you guys worry about that and just be sure all the 10th's on my Yamaha are not beating themselves to death.

[Frodo]

But from my perspective, what I play or compose if of far greater importance to me than the instrument I use. Sure, it still has to be a great instrument to play what I need.

That's more or less where I am. After all, I've embraced the entire DAW approach out of a certain necessity, and with that necessity comes certain realities of virtual reality. While DAW work is a possible means to an end, it remains more of a means for me than and end.

That one VI is not a real piano or another VI is not a real orchestra is almost belaboring the obvious. As long as I'm using DAWs and VIs in combo to make a living, the question becomes one of whether or not a VI is *enough* of a piano or *enough* of a drum kit or *enough* of an orchestra to get the musical point across.

[Shooshie]

But from my perspective, what I play or compose if of far greater importance to me than the instrument I use. Sure, it still has to be a great instrument to play what I need.

That's more or less where I am. After all, I've embraced the entire DAW approach out of a certain necessity, and with that necessity comes certain realities of virtual reality. While DAW work is a possible means to an end, it remains more of a means for me than and end.

That one VI is not a real piano or another VI is not a real orchestra is almost belaboring the obvious. As long as I'm using DAWs and VIs in combo to make a living, the question becomes one of whether or not a VI is *enough* of a piano or *enough* of a drum kit or *enough* of an orchestra to get the musical point across.

Ditto what Frodo said. Plus, I think we miss a LOT of points when we get into debates about this stuff. There is one point that is occasionally mentioned, but not often enough: that's the fact that this discussion even exists. That is to say, VI's have come a long way. We're actually comparing them to pianos... er... RECORDINGS of pianos. Personally, I think the biggest problem in VI's, next to the string resonance as pointed out by MLC, is the mic placement. I just don't find the recordings of those notes to be clear enough. Maybe they originally were clear, but the VI makers had to compress them down or something to make them all work together. I don't know. I've never made a VI, so I don't know what kind of compromising choices they're faced with, but clearly the placement of the mics is the first irreversible choice that can limit or doom a virtual piano.

I'm very much interested in VI's, because even though I love the craftsmanship of real instruments, they just aren't affordable to most people. The only times in my life during which I could afford to go out an buy a Steinway Grand were accompanied with discoveries that there were other things my family needed more. I still hope to get a Yamaha Disklavier someday. Having spent so much of my life with piano music all day long, I'm a confirmed piano lover. I love the shape, the feel, the sound, the textures, and I can sit for hours with my head inside one while someone else does the honors at the keyboard. (probably why my ears ring constantly now) But I also want everyone else to have this experience. The best most can hope for is a good VI.

Recently in another thread, I posted a cello VI playing Saint-Saens' The Swan. I was surprised at the broad range of debate that followed. There were lots of emotional outbursts as people said "it'll never replace a real cello!" Well... duh! Obviously you can't hold it between your knees and stroke it. (:P) But it gives me the ability to use cello in my recordings when I cannot afford to hire a cellist. And frankly, sometimes I think I can do a better job of it with the Garritan Gofriller Cello than a lot of cellists who put themselves up for hire, and without the complaining. In other words, these thing serve a purpose. They save us money, especially when we don't have enough to pay a full orchestra, or a piano soloist. They can be enjoyable: I play the Bach Cello Suites on the Gofriller Cello using my WX-5, and quite frankly, it's nirvana. If I'm enjoying it so much, what right has anyone else to criticize that? I LIKE it. That's reason enough! Nobody else's opinions really matter.

But again, I'm digressing from my original point which is that I've simply been fascinated that we are able to DO this. That the instruments have come so far. Never in all the years of hardware synths and samplers did I ever feel as though any sensible person would ever listen to one and think it was "real," but now we're actually running the these things past the public, and they are not catching that they are VI's. They do sound real enough for most of the general public who are not concerned with the details that disturb us when using that word "life-like."

Oh, and before I go... MIDI Life Crisis, I want to tell you that in the better Piano VI's, they aren't looping the tails anymore. From the Ivory manual:

"... Ivory contains more than 40 Gigabytes of carefully assembled, unlooped and untransposed samples of three distinct world-class instruments..."

Later, there is this tidbit of interest:

"... In addition to the primary recordings, there is an entire set of release samples for each key. Because the sound of the damper muting the string differs according to how long a note has been sounding before the key is released, Ivory's release samples have been taken not only at different key velocitires, but at different time intervals after the onset of the note. The playback engine keeps track of each note's duration, and when the key is released, it triggers the appropriate release sample."

In the end, nothing matters but the way they sound, and as we heard, Ivory does not measure up to a good recording of the real thing, at least not in a ballad. But it's interesting that they are taking these things into consideration. As TS Eliot said:

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."

I couldn't have said it better. It will not cease, because "it's there."

Shooshie

[HeadMaster]

No idea about the rest here, but the last one has to be the Grand piano. Very well performed!!

. . .
HM

[Shooshie]

No idea about the rest here, but the last one has to be the Grand piano. Very well performed!!

. . .
HM

You are correct on both counts!


Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...you can't hold it between your knees and stroke it. (:P)

Shooshie

Between your KNEES!!!??? Now I have bow envy!

It IS important to compare VIs and I do so in great detail when buying. But I have been so disappointed in most purchases that I guess I'm liking sampled instruments LESS the MORE advanced they get.

[HeadMaster]

No idea about the rest here, but the last one has to be the Grand piano. Very well performed!!

. . .
HM

You are correct on both counts!


Shooshie

You the performer?

. . .
HM

[Shooshie]

No, Ariel the pianist was the performer. I only placed the microphones and set up the preamps, etc., balanced the equipment, and set up the files in DP. Another friend recorded it, and yet another mastered it.

Shooshie

[dogBoy]

piano#2 is clearly a VI. There's a lack of tonal variations. I don't know if that do to the velocity curve or not. It is deep and rich sounding thou.

piano# 1-3 both have the tonal variations.
I knew #3 was real because of the lack of high end and the amount of compression. Over compression is a bad habit.
Ivory sounds very good.

I wonder how the performance of the piece would have been altered if it was performed on each respective instrument, VI or acoustic (we know what it sounds like on the Yamaha). Weighted keys or say my Motif's very not weighted key.

Glad you posted a link to Ariel's Web site. I enjoyed checking it out. His arrangements of classic rock tunes ... ah... rock. Like a modern day Liberace. Sound as if he's really pulled it off, not an easy thing to do.

[mhschmieder]

Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend/collaborator. I know that can especially be rough when revisiting the material. Another forum member and I share a former collaborator who died in a horrendous motorcycle incident a couple of years back. I find it difficult to listen to that music now.

Staying off-topic briefly, I am glad to hear of your success with the WX-5 and Garritan Gofriller Cello combination. I was too busy preparing for a gig these past few weeks to get around to trying that yet, but now am even more motivated. The cello was already the member of the violin family that I had been the most successful with using the WX-5/VL70m Turbo combination, but the timbre just wasn't quite right so I went tentatively back to Vienna Instruments for that -- with far less expressive control.

[zed]

No, Ariel the pianist was the performer. I only placed the microphones and set up the preamps, etc., balanced the equipment, and set up the files in DP.

Wow Shoosh. I've heard you mention the Five Grand Pianos numerous times before, but I didn't really understand the context of what you were doing. I didn't realize that Ariel was the performer on all those pianos, and that he was such an amazing talent. Such a shame to have lost him.

Those audio samples on the Ariel the pianist website sound terrific. Are you responsible for the micing and setup of all those recordings?

[Shooshie]

No, Ariel the pianist was the performer. I only placed the microphones and set up the preamps, etc., balanced the equipment, and set up the files in DP.

Wow Shoosh. I've heard you mention the Five Grand Pianos numerous times before, but I didn't really understand the context of what you were doing. I didn't realize that Ariel was the performer on all those pianos, and that he was such an amazing talent. Such a shame to have lost him.

Those audio samples on the Ariel the pianist website sound terrific. Are you responsible for the micing and setup of all those recordings?

I'm the engineer on all the five-piano stuff. I'm the uncredited engineer on a few of the solo things, but mostly for those I'm just the mic-setup/DAW setup guy. For the Andrew Lloyd Webber stuff, the engineer was none other than our own BuzzSmith in Houston, back in the early 1980's. Thanks for the comments. You'd have loved Ariel in concert, especially knowing that DP was back there happily churning out the MIDI and light cues.


Shooshie