MOTUnation.com

I don't know what happened, but after I bought Logic, DP started working a LOT better. I swear these things are alive, and have the same characteristics as people. DP saw Logic encroaching upon my time and attention, and it got on the ball! In the past two weeks of working with DP (and that means it's open for 36 hours at a time, with me working at it most of those hours) I have experienced only one crash with DP. I lost some work, and it hurt, but it was my own stupidity for not having saved in about 16 hours. The rest of the time, DP has run like a sewing machine... just humming along. Almost no problems. There is one problem that really bugged me in DP 5.11 -- the playback bug in which playback would not begin the first time you press PLAY, but would start normally the 2nd time. That really irritated me. I went back to 5.12 because of it. I didn't need to go to 5.11, but I just wanted to upgrade to Leopard. So, I decided to use 5.12, and just wait on Leopard. Now I'm installing it (Leopard), and I already have 5.13. In fact, I have three versions of DP sitting in my Dock.

Logic? Haven't used it in two weeks. But I dislike the lack of familiarity with it. I spend so much time looking for features I'm not even sure are there. That hurts. There is something to be said for 20 years experience with a DAW, and that's how long I've been using DP. (formerly Performer, back in the day) So, naturally Logic has some time left before it grows on me. That's just going to take a while. Hopefully they'll add some more features then.

One thing that I can't believe now that I've been using Logic is all the people who've come through this forum lamenting that DP just doesn't have the features that Logic has. They'd go on and on about it, and I was beginning to think that Logic must be about the most perfect DAW out there. Of course, they just didn't know jack about DP. It takes some kind of arrogance to sit down in the middle of a group of experts and rhapsodize about another DAW while cutting down the one that the experts use. What could I say? I didn't know if Logic had those things or not. But when I'd take the time to figure out what they were saying, I always was able to show them that DP had what they were talking about. I'd caught on to their little game a long time ago, but I am quite surprised to find that Logic seems lacking in some areas. I haven't been taking notes, so don't press me for details. I'll be able to say more when Logic is more familiar to me.

I'm glad to have both, but as DP gets better and better, I fear that Logic is going to sit idle. I'm going to have to start a major project in Logic to really get the experience I need in it. Workflow? I'm not there yet. But I've recorded a few things in Logic, because it's so easy to boot and get started, and then saved them as SMF's and opened them in DP for actual working. That's a start.

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:...That's a start.
Shooshie

Let's hope it's not the beginning of the end.
Long live DP, fuddy-duddies and all MOTU stalwarts.

PS: Is a stalwart a blemish that stopped growing?
PPS: What's happening? Is this a punctuated equilibrial leap I'm experiencing?
Hmm... perhaps it's a leap in faith (yet another) in MOTU.

I also have been using DP for 20+ years - but the glitches have been really annoying me (particularly MIDI bursts), and the inefficient CPU use. Before I got my Intel-mac, my system was bullet-proof for about 3 years. Everything worked great - few crashes. Of course, as we've gotten more reliant on VI plug-ins, you need more horsepower, so I decided to dive in on the MacPro - it hasn't been a picnic, I'll you that!! So, after my grumbling and prodding from friends, I decided to give Logic a try. Initially, it's easy to get up and going - I did a few small projects last week successfully, although I was pretty slow when it came to any kind of detail editing - that will take some time to become "automatic". However, I had one project I just couldn't get a handle on creatively, and realized that so much of my brain-space was being taken up by trying to get Logic to do what I needed. Mind you, this isn't a fault of Logic, just that it's going to take a long time to get comfortable with it, like I have been with DP - everything is "automatic" and 2nd Nature to me at this point. I'm going to keep at it for a while longer and see if I can get over the hump, then I can make a fair decision about what will be my main "go to" DAW. In my heart of hearts, I just wish DP was rock solid as it used to be, not to mention more CPU efficient....we wouldn't be having this discussion!

Shooshie wrote:But I've recorded a few things in Logic, because it's so easy to boot and get started, and then saved them as SMF's and opened them in DP for actual working. That's a start.

Shooshie

I'm not well-versed in cross appication work, SMFs, etc, but would you be able to detail what you actually get when you save Logic Project as a SMF and then open it in DP? Do you just get recorded audio tracks, do you get MIDI, do you get any patches or VI selections saved, do you get a track list that mirrors the L8 project? I know I could do this myself but I'm looking to save a bit of time to investigate by just asking a question rather than spending the minutes or hours to find out that it won't really do what I want.

What I've finding now in Logic is that for putting together quick 'skeletons', using the included Loops and Instruments, because of the ease of finding and selecting them, it really speeds up the process of getting something quickly down. This may be possible in DP but I didn't experience this much ease of use when doing this. The use of loops, truncating, cutting, repeating, time stretching to match tempo, and even changing time meter seems a lot easier in Logic than DP.

What I don't like is that it doesn't seem there is a 'chunk' concept (even thought at least in my experience in DP it's slow and unstable). There is a 'folder track' concept in L8, but from what I've seen, in just a few minutes of use, I don't like it. It's like folders in DP but not as good or intuitive. Also I'm sure there is good mixer automation in L8, but I can't readily find out how to do it. Even reassigning an instrument ot a already recorded MIDI track seems impossible (although it very well may be possible, just not intuitive).

So far what I see is the L8 has far-far less features, especially for working along with video for example setting sequence SMPTE start points is so much more of a pain than in DP's set 'set chunk start time', but what it does it does a lot faster.

Thanks for all the input!

When you save a Logic file as SMF, you get a bare-bones MIDI file with notes, MIDI events, and tempo track. I'm not sure if you get Patch Changes, but you do get Controllers. I've never explored the limits of SMF's. It WAS a relief to learn that they save tempo changes!

Shooshie

A couple of years ago I posted a question to the Swedish MacWorld. I wanted to know why there were no tests or columns about DP. Their expert of DAWs wrote that DP was his choice at the beginning of his career. And although he thought it was the best DAW, he abandoned it because all of his friends used otherones. Me too (I too am...how the do you say it...) pretty lonely in this case. All the people I know use Logic. Even at the university where I got my education and which by the way was my first contact with Performer (at that time honoured by my former teacher), they have gone to Logic for the same reason. "Everyone else uses it".

Thank God for 31 flavors ice cream. Man does not live by vanilla ice cream alone.

While I agree with the views this post when it comes to LOGIC just use it for what it does. Loop browsing, object oriented writing and VI host.

I prefer to work in DP 90 percent of the time. But the loops and non latency VIs make songwriting and sketching give Logic a leg up for now. I would be surprized if DP does not add these features. They already have the technology in Ethno. It is really just a big browser for loops and samples.

The fact that everyone is using Logic is because pop music is dominated by mix and match, slice and dice songs and artists. My 12 year old daughter cranks out stuff on garage band that is amazing. She can't play an instrument. So for guys like me who play, use players, record live and like bands may be an endangered species. If I were to start my music career today I would have become a DJ... Don't get me wrong I love using BFD to write songs instead of paying some drummer but I usually end up cutting the songs with a real drummer in real time using of all things real drums and real drum sticks. Not index fingers on rubber pads... lol

Now that DP is STABLE (thank the MOTU gods) My vote for conventional studio type work DP is the BEST by far... or protools if you want to spend 5 times as much to do the same thing...

The other area where Logic is working for me... when I get a big project going in DP and need to odub VIs toward I use Logic. Then fly those back to DP... why? because DP is ok at Buffer 128 with just a few things going but when you have a load on it and try to crank down the buffers forget it... My other choice would be run a VI machine...

So DP can just smoke Logic right out of the water with a Loop browser, lowered latency on VIs and a library... but that is the key... I have a feeling that library of Apple loops in Logic must be pretty expensive to assemble. I wonder if MOTU has the resources to throw at it...

My favorite quote is from Joe Walsh when asked what the difference between making a record now and then...

JOE WALSH ..."back when we recorded the difference was we learned the song then recorded it"

By the way... when I learned Logic I set aside 5 days straight all day long.. I can use Logic now to get my stuff done in case DP is going through some growing pains...

But this is important.... IF YOU ARE JUST STARTING ON LOGIC...

You only have 90 days of support. The Apple support for Logic was really great for me. So don't fiddle with the Manual and sit there are stare at your monitor cussing out Steve Jobs. Call APPLE tech support. I must have called those guys 30 times. I figured if I only had 90 days I was going to get my monies worth... and it worked!

I called those guys everytime I was stuck for more then 2 minutes. And I fiddled with it while waiting for the tech support. It only took a few minutes to get through every time.... So.... USE THOSE GUYS AT APPLE WHILE YOU HAVE THEM... and use some of the Forums after that...

Good advice, Waxman. I've got to remember to do that. I'm stuck on a few things, so I'll have to make a list before I call them. I've got to get rolling on that. I'll bet I've already wasted 45 days of my support!

Shooshie

Has anyone got DP working together with Logic, in that Logic is a VI host, with it's audio sent via Soundflower into DP (and MIDI as well, via DP's interapplication MIDI)?

I was able to set it up using the MOTU tech note about using Garageband instruments in DP- http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technot ... garageband), but I was getting sound that sounded almost like it was looping 2 or 3 times.

Shooshie wrote:I lost some work, and it hurt, but it was my own stupidity for not having saved in about 16 hours.

Well, you went a couple of weeks without anyone giving you flack for this. But I just read it... so I'll give you some flack. WHAT THE HELL!?!?!? 16 hours without saving!?! Are you mad?!?

I presume there was a sleeping cycle mixed up in there, somewhere?

You probably already learned your lesson and are back to saving every 5 minutes. But just in case you needed further reinforcement, there you have it.

Appreciate your insights into Logic, from the perspective of a long-time DP user. I am hoping that DP just continues to get better so that I never have to learn another DAW again. Would rather spend the time learning a new instrument or plugin (or reviewing the DP tip sheet).

:D:D

Thanks, Zed! That'll keep my fingers on the ol' save button!


Shoosh

I save after every single move. In fact, it's practically all I do with my left hand. I've been burned far to many times to do otherwise.

My leap from 2.7 something to DP5 has involved hitting the command-S more frequently. No more than five minutes of work is safe nowadays. Before, I could forget to save until the session was over with no losses. Usually I saved a couple of times per hour.

Not only do I save frequently, but because of past experiences with file corruption, I go one step further... Every few hours I will make a copy of the sequence file and rename it for backup purposes before I save the working file. I do this at the beginning of each session before overwriting the last saved version from a previous day.

Ride your bicycles safely, monkeys!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LQ_lxvTYrQ&sdig=1