MOTUnation.com

Ned Bouhalassa wrote:Andy B is a god to me because of nothing to do with any sample library. It has to with his mockup of...

What am I doing? Pearls before swine!

Bye folks. Have fun with your virtual composing, I'm done here.

I thought his Sorcerer's Apprentice was great. That was his, wasn't it? Other entries I can remember include Jeux de Vagues from La Mer, and Jupiter, neither of which sounded very mature to me. You must remember, to do this requires you to be an interpreter of the greatest composers who ever lived. The competition is pretty stiff. Just succeeding in getting it "done" is not the same as doing it on the level of the great conductors and orchestras. And if you can't improve on what they've done, all you're doing is proving the concept that it might be doable in a VI library. Very few of my projects reach even close to the level of the great recordings, but if they do, it's because I was informed by those recordings. Andy doesn't seem to listen to what's out there. How much performing has he done in orchestras?

That said, just his mere accomplishments in producing so many full-orchestral mockups is a fine achievement. It's an incredible amount of work. He's definitely got talent, but it would be a shame to tell him he's godlike when in fact he's obviously still learning this. But he'll learn. He'll get better and hopefully one day he'll show the world that this can be done BETTER in a VI library than in a real orchestra. But that day is quite a way off if the extant recordings are evidence of where he is. Make no mistake about it: this is hard work. It's just that to do this kind of work AND rise above the level of so many great artists requires something exceptional; so far it hasn't been achieved.

Andy is coming along well. I respect him very much. But calling him a god does him no favors. Then you call me swine? Hehehe… are you a kid? Have you even HEARD real orchestras? They hire you to score for films in England without your having heard real quality music? You've got some of the greatest musicians in the world right there in London (or is that where you are?). You should avail yourself of their talent and learn how to turn a line. All of you need to learn that. The fact that you don't even recognize a poorly turned line is indicative of the entire problem behind this debate.

This thread was silly, but I had to try. If I could have helped make Spitfire "the best," it would have been worth it. Apparently that's not going to happen. You have to be capable of identifying what's good before you can make the best.

Shooshie

Ned Bouhalassa wrote:Oh, and Shooshie, Miroslav? Really? Is this 1996? Talk about refried beans...

I don't care for Miroslav, but I know plenty of "pros" that do well with them so to each their own.

As a full-time composer, I also am very fortunate to make a great living doing my work, and so I buy libraries like Albion in about the time it takes to pronounce it.

He also mentions being a "full time composer" repeatedly on the wiki page most likely written by...well...himself. Check it for yourself. Where does he find the time?!

I've always thought of the DP community as featuring a great number of pros, people using DP on Hollywood soundtracks.

You're right...but you have to have been nominated for an oscar, golden globe or nobel prize to even apply for a license. That's how you know it's good.

Surely it couldn't be that the DP pros are acting like KvR hobbyists, freaking out because they can't afford some virtual instrument or library?

What's KvR?

Surely DP pros understand that, when you (meaning himself I suppose) have regularly have 50K or more budget for music, you can afford to have more exclusive tools?

This particular individual sure has a healthy dose of gumption considering his credits on imdb consist entirely of B movie local Quebec productions and TV shows.

HAHAHAHA!

This is my current soundtrack gig, punk!

http://familymovienight.com/who-is-simon-miller/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You guys are so personal, I'm tempted to stick around for the thrill, you know, like peeing behind a frat house party.

Some of you are reacting so strongly, that I suspect that emperor's clothes are starting to look less and less visible.

I bought Miroslav in the old days, had fun with their wonderful brass and strings, but when I bought the new IK version, I was totally uninspired by the limitations of the programming, especially compared with what I'm used to now. Nothing wrong with that - it's been around forever.

Now, someone please start taking apart everything I just wrote, 'cause you've got not much better to do.

PS: Oh, and for that gig, I'm actually paying to do it. That's the only way I get work. No problem though, as I'm only using GPO for that one.

Sooshie, I appreciate the time you dedicated to illustrate your point. I respect Andy B's response too. I love Miroslav BTW and find it warm and expressive. I have pre ordered Albion to add to my VSL and Project Sam and EWQLSO and a ton of other VIs. At this point I don't think there's a holy grail for orchestral sample libraries which is why I keep buying new ones. Albion does sound impressive and I'm eagerly awaiting it. Hope I can do some demos to post here for you guys an hope it may turn a couple heads or ears.

Ned Bouhalassa wrote:HAHAHAHA!

This is my current soundtrack gig, punk!

http://familymovienight.com/who-is-simon-miller/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You guys are so personal, I'm tempted to stick around for the thrill, you know, like peeing behind a frat house party.

Some of you are reacting so strongly, that I suspect that emperor's clothes are starting to look less and less visible.

I bought Miroslav in the old days, had fun with their wonderful brass and strings, but when I bought the new IK version, I was totally uninspired by the limitations of the programming, especially compared with what I'm used to now. Nothing wrong with that - it's been around forever.

Now, someone please start taking apart everything I just wrote, 'cause you've got not much better to do.

Your credits are nothing to be ashamed of...but most certainly nothing to put on heirs about either (few credits are.) Your own words seem clear enough to me. You come out of nowhere and begin hurling thinly veiled insults at anyone and everyone here. Oh dear...some might interpret that as a "strong reaction" yourself. Let me try and follow your logic:

Strong reactions = hobbyist
Hobbyist = lesser humans with invalid opinions

I could be wrong. Who here is a hobbyist or a pro? The content of their posts should show that. I certainly don't create social hierarchies based on it. Don't care.

And congrats on the new gig. Seriously.

And Shoosh...thanks for the demos. Spitfire had the best timbre to my ears, but performance was a bit odd here and there both in dynamics and transition. I'm no flautist.

The WIVI vibrato was strangely tight to me (insert sex joke) and needed some EQ for sure.

The Miroslav still doesn't impress. I know some love it. Could really hear the separation of notes as opposed to the Vienna which was the most seamless to me BUT the stupid notes don't sustain enough so I could hear when you switched patches. Why did Vienna do this WHY!? Damn their eyes!!

Well, I'm done here. The intention was to discover whether Spitfire had certain limitations or features, and possibly offer some suggestions for making it better. Total lack of cooperation made that impossible, which is ok; they didn't ask for suggestions. I just hate to see it being billed as "the best" if it in fact can't play the simple musical line in the Debussy. But it probably can. I'm assuming at this point that the player just chose an awkward way to phrase it.

It ceased being worth the trouble at least a page ago.

Shooshie

malditoyanki,

I'm not the one who started on about my credits*. In all my time on various forums over the years, I've never seen a music forum member be taken apart like I have, imdb and wiki references, making fun of his/her career. But hey, I kicked a hornets' nest, so what did I expect? FWIW, I have a ton of respect for all working composers, regardless of their credits, as I know how hard it is to survive and make a living full-time in the biz. As for hobbyists, of course I respect them/you too, I was once one too, and may be one again in the future.

Finally, What the heck? at least I have a career to make fun of!

* Oh yeah, of course you know this - you're the sleuth who uncovered my mediocrity!

I'm going to post one last time, just to try and clear up (again) some inaccuracies and accusations that have been made.

Although firstly, I'd like to ask Shooshie, if you would kindly remove the Debussy flute demo from your server. I'm of course happy for you to post a link, and indeed we have updated the audio file now as unfortunately, rather than being what it was - simply a bit of fun for our bespoke library members to hear some work in progress - it has now become a method by which people who have an issue with us for some reason unknown, to try to discredit us publicly.

It is our decision what of our own recordings we choose to place on our server for listening to, but these recordings belong to us and if we choose to replace them at any stage its not really on for us to have people making them available without our consent.

so - the link is

http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws. ... %20REV.mp3

and maybe you'll even approve of the way Andy has phrased this new (and final) version.

Now:

Ned has been accused here of being a stooge, working for or with Spitfire and suddenly leaping to our defence without revealing his involvement. Again, I am bewildered by this uncalled for insult. Its extraordinary!

In fact, Ned has no association with Spitfire whatsoever. I know him as a fellow VI Control forum member, along with several hundred other regulars over there, and thats it. Someone over there posted a link to this discussion, thats how he heard of it.

Now, re Shooshie's frustration with my lack of follow up: I have no desire to 'co-operate' with some of the people here who have this approach, I'm sad to say, and who opened a one-sided discussion with a series of insults and indeed unfounded accusations that are wildly inaccurate, and frankly borderline libelous in places.

I'm a really easy going guy, I'm not personally offended by any of this, its really just water off a ducks back for me. I love my work, I compose for a living, very fortunate I know, and I have had a blast making some tools for people I enjoy working with and hugely admire - you know by now who I'm talking about, I'm not going to start dropping names but the info is all there plain to see on our site.

We are not intending to make something that will replace a musician. I thought surely that much is made abundantly clear by now? What my clients want is a great *sounding* set of tools that they can demo to directors with, and actually using the players that they choose to work with when they record here in the UK. They know their tone, their timbre, and they want that, as a placeholder until recordings.

Anything else is secondary to the sound. Thats why we have no interest in recording in silent rooms etc. We are all about the sound in the room.

Our clients, the most important people to us, have suggested improvements along the way, feature requests, etc and we continue to work with them. Its a labour of love, a work in progress.

We were really delighted to be offered a credit on Avatar in response to our work for the music team on that movie, and a recognition of how they held our work in the overall process. Its a huge honour, and very kind.

We work hard, and we are honest about what we do. Thats about it really, I can't keep on defending myself against what I see as totally unjust accusations for ever more, so I'll bow out at this point.

I hate ad hominem attacks, and I have no intention of making any, or responding to any.

So my last request is: please Shooshie, honour my request to remove the flute demo from your own server and replace the link with a link to our own. I hope thats not offensive, and I certainly feel its our right to ask this.

I'm sad this whole thread has been so negative, and frankly, bewildered as well.

All the best to you,

Paul

Sorry but the link isn't working here.

Looks like there won't be a motunation group buy deal then..

Matcher wrote:Looks like there won't be a motunation group buy deal then..

Ah, levity.

Ned Bouhalassa wrote:What am I doing? Pearls before swine!

Bye folks. Have fun with your virtual composing, I'm done here.

Ned, before I post a follow up to the spitfire comment (which invoked the "libel" word -- where is that eye-rolling emoticon again? Oh, here are a couple: ) you started copping an attitude right from the get-go. You were a user who asked for some Logic help years ago and then lay dormant for years and only pop up to brand this topic as childish and then you presumed to speak for the "soundtrack pros" predicting them leaving this forum in droves because of so-called "kool-aid" drinkers. Talk about turning it personal. The merits of the library (including price, etc) were being discussed, nothing more.

spitfire wrote:...firstly, I'd like to ask Shooshie, if you would kindly remove the Debussy flute demo from your server.

Of course. [it has been removed] Now that this issue is resolved, I wouldn't mind seeing this entire thread disappear, as well. As I promised, I will amend my posts to reflect the truth about the Flute sample, that it is not hampered by the library. The original demo just made it sound that way.

spitfire wrote: and indeed we have updated the audio file now as unfortunately, rather than being what it was - simply a bit of fun for our bespoke library members to hear some work in progress - it has now become a method by which people who have an issue with us for some reason unknown, to try to discredit us publicly.

When you claim to be selling the best library available, and for a very high price, it's not "fun" to post a demo that misleads the ear to believe that the library isn't so good. You should post the best demo possible. But "discredit us publicly?" I don't even know you; why would I want to discredit you? I was trying to get to the bottom of this issue: either it was the library or the player. Now we know it was the player. Your library is very good. I'm glad to know that.

Why couldn't you have just said so a week ago when I asked you?

spitfire wrote:so - the link is

http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws. ... %20REV.mp3

and maybe you'll even approve of the way Andy has phrased this new (and final) version.

Yes indeed! That is a good performance, and it's much more fitting for a library that claims to be among the best. I wish you had not waited a week to do this. The lack of actual communication about the issue (rather than coming here only to tell us what awful people we are) only served to escalate the problem.

spitfire wrote:Now, re Shooshie's frustration with my lack of follow up: I have no desire to 'co-operate' with some of the people here who have this approach, I'm sad to say, and who opened a one-sided discussion with a series of insults and indeed unfounded accusations that are wildly inaccurate, and frankly borderline libelous in places.

My criticisms were extremely accurate. You have finally responded to them by posting a decent performance of the Debussy. Paul, maybe you know, or maybe you don't know what solo instruments used to sound like with velocity envelopes. The Debussy really left me a little incredulous that this could be happening in this day and age. If it were true, then the Bespoke library would have been a sad case of exaggerated marketing to those of us who really look for a good set of woodwinds. When Andy first replayed it, I figured that would put an end to the discussion. Oddly, he did the same thing again. What's one to think? This is test #1 for any VI. If it doesn't pass that test, you don't even bother to look further.

At any time you could have simply answered my question. You knew the answer, but chose not to. Maybe you were indignant that I didn't just know the answer. How could I with the Debussy sitting there screaming "this is wrong." A little communication would have spared us a week's worth of speculation. I'm pleased that I don't have to explain it any further, and hopefully the goodness of the Bespoke library will trickle down into the Albion library. I may buy that when it comes available.

spitfire wrote:We are not intending to make something that will replace a musician. I thought surely that much is made abundantly clear by now?
[…]
We work hard, and we are honest about what we do. Thats about it really, I can't keep on defending myself against what I see as totally unjust accusations for ever more, so I'll bow out at this point.

There's nothing to defend now. You have a fine library. I wish you had shown us this in the beginning, rather than posting something so off-the-wall as that demo of the Debussy which clearly gave the wrong impression, and then evading an important question for an entire week.

You and I have different goals for virtual instruments. I wish to play them as I play flute, saxophone, piano, or other instruments. I want to perform great music on them in real-time. I've been working toward this for more than 25 years. I am a former symphonic performer. I periodically hear myself on the radio on RCA or TEL-ARC recordings from the early 1980's. Having achieved my musical goals fairly early in life, I switched to computers and MIDI to bring a level of concert performance into this MIDI world, which at the time consisted of people who mainly were programmers, not performers. If I play a VI, I can't very well put myself out of work. So while I respect your intentions with your library, we do not share those intentions exactly in the same way.

spitfire wrote:I hate ad hominem attacks, and I have no intention of making any, or responding to any.

So my last request is: please Shooshie, honour my request to remove the flute demo from your own server and replace the link with a link to our own. I hope thats not offensive, and I certainly feel its our right to ask this.

I'm sad this whole thread has been so negative, and frankly, bewildered as well.

That is my feeling as well. When you arrived, I apologized for my over-the-top reaction to the original demo. Given what it sounded like, it DID make me angry that you were billing it as one of the best libraries. I was within my rights to criticize such a mis-rendering of the Debussy if THAT was perceived by your group as "the best." It was, in fact, far from it. I asked you about it, but you all evaded my question, saying that we had no right to be concerned about it. I disagree, of course. And I saw this as an opportunity to turn this thread into something very productive. Progress was made: You finally posted a worthy performance of the Debussy which gives credence to Spitfire, to Bespoke, and to Andy.

And at long last, I have my answer, but a week later. Honestly, I think you have created a very fine library. I'd like to know more about it. But for now, it's probably best that we all just go our separate ways until this cools off. I sincerely hope that next time we meet -- online or in life -- our dialog will be enjoyable and we can forget this ridiculous episode.

Shooshie