To Dither or Not To Dither, that is the question

[buzzsmith]

I've been leaving it off. So far nothing I've done has made me say "OMG! That sounds terrible!" So rather than hurt my brain trying to make sense of it I'll leave it set to where it's been set.

Me, too.

I let Ozone handle the dithering in the mastering process.

Buzzy

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[Shooshie]

If you print a two-track from your mix, you need dithering. My opinion, of course. I say that, because if you don't dither to 2-track, you'll end up with that stuff that only dogs can hear, and it'll be causing clipping like crazy, and your mastering engineer will get this and say "gee, I wish I'd taken the day off and referred this one to my competition."

I'm open for correction, but I don't see how this could turn out good.

Shoosh

[James Steele]

If you print a two-track from your mix, you need dithering. My opinion, of course. I say that, because if you don't dither to 2-track, you'll end up with that stuff that only dogs can hear, and it'll be causing clipping like crazy, and your mastering engineer will get this and say "gee, I wish I'd taken the day off and referred this one to my competition."

I'm open for correction, but I don't see how this could turn out good.

Shoosh

Right, but do you need it if you're bouncing down a 24 bit project to a 24 bit stereo file? I am usually bouncing to disc as MP3 or 16bit uncompressed stereo files to burn to CD. When I bounce to disc I usually use the dithering in WaveArts Final plug.

[Frodo]

Right, but do you need it if you're bouncing down a 24 bit project to a 24 bit stereo file? I am usually bouncing to disc as MP3 or 16bit uncompressed stereo files to burn to CD. When I bounce to disc I usually use the dithering in WaveArts Final plug.

Because of this, I've spoken to an engineer who only deals with DP and only works with audio. He's long worked with dithering off by default and has done everything in 24-bit in DP, saving any audio format conversion of any kind for a different process, a different app for mastering, etc., fwiw.

[bkshepard]

I do everything at 24-bit and leave dithering off until I'm ready for the final bounce. Then, like James, if I need to go down to CD, or some sort of 16-bit file, I use the WaveArts Final plug to do the dither.

[Dan Worley]

I wonder if the Dither under the Audio menu is even working. So far I've tested Exports, Conversions, Bounces, and Merges and it doesn't seem to work during any of them.

Maybe it only works in 16-bit projects? I haven't had time to test further.

It's a mystery to me.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[cbergm7210]

If ever we've needed The Magic Dave Behind The Curtain, it's now.




(I like these new faces, BTW)

[PhireAlly]

Hey All,
I think, the key is in understanding that MAS & DP handle different aspects of the program.

So for all DP related functions .... Dither under the Audio Menu MUST be on .... because Dither in the MW Limiter IS NOT applied to those functions.

OTOH, Dither in the MW Limiter ONLY affects MAS related functions ... (e.g) Bounce To Disk.

So it's safe to leave (Audio Menu) Dither ON, as the processes do not overlap.

What may be good to know from MOTU is which functions are DP related and which are MAS.
Maybe a list of sorts ???

Blessings,
PhireAlly

[toodamnhip]

Generally, MOTU is pretty clear that they recommend to leave dither ON. DP's dither doesn't apply to operations under MAS (i.e. recording, re-recording) but it does apply to operations under DP itself (merging, pitch shifting, etc.) In all those instances you're truncating, and ditherless truncation noise is always worse than dither noise. That's why we dither in the first place!

In general, there is so much less noise in the audio chain than there used to be in the analog days, and truncation noise is such an ugly artefact, I'd much rather have the occasional double-dither than risk truncation noise.

The question remains open if MOTU's recommendation still holds when you choose to work in 32bit float. But for those of us working in 24bit or 16bit (God forbid! Why would you do that?), leave dither option checked.

The only time I turn DP's dither off is when I export a soundbite from the soundbites window. Not 100% sure, but I believe that is a DP function. When exporting a soundbite unchanged I of course don't want dither added, so I turn it off, to be safe. Would love to hear from MOTU/MagicD if DP's dither (when checked) gets applied when exporting a sound bite at its original bit depth and sample rate.

I am running DP 5.13. I run 24 bit. I didn't know there was an additional 32 bit float option? Is this an option in DP 7?

[toodamnhip]

So what happens if I am in 24 bit mode in DP 5.13 and merge the file and it's splices WITH dither checked.
In that case, i am merging an already 24 bit file TO 24 bit. Will dither add noise or anything to the merged 24bit file or just do nothing because it is 24 bit to 24 bit?

[Dan Worley]

So what happens if I am in 24 bit mode in DP 5.13 and merge the file and it's splice WITH dither checked.
In that case, i am merging to 24 bit an already 24 bit file. Will dither add noise or anything to the merged 24bit file or just do nothing because it is 24 bit to 24 bit?

My test show it does nothing. Duplicate a track made up of different soundbites and x-fades, merge one with dither On and the other with dither Off and then do a null test between the two. The results I get is complete silence, which shouldn't be the case if one track is dithered and the other is truncated. I've yet to find a scenario where having dither on under the Audio menu makes any difference. I'm not complaining or unhappy about it (and maybe I'm doing something wrong, though I've been very careful), it's just one of those mysteries.

Keep in mind that I'm running 6.03. I encourage others to do their own tests.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[toodamnhip]

So if I use Ozone 4 to dither 24 bit down to 16 bit, then what?
I bounce to disc the file with bounce to disk set to 16 bit with DP dither off?

[Dan Worley]

So if I use Ozone 4 to dither 24 bit down to 16 bit, then what?
I bounce to disc the file with bounce to disk set to 16 bit with DP dither off?

Yes. But you really don't have to worry whether Audio dither is on or off in that case because it's not active during bounces--even though the manual says it is. Now if you do a real-time mix with a plug-in dither active and export the resulting soundfile as 16-bit, then you would want to make sure Audio dither is off during the export. Though, again, my test show that it's not active during an export either, but from what I've read it should be.



c-ya,

Dan Worley

[toodamnhip]

Unless there has been a RECENT post elsewhere where this subject is clarified, I really wish Magic D would chime in..please!!

For example, if running DP 32 fp, and merging a file, does one need to have dither on or off?
Same in DP 5, when merging a file with edits, what does dither do or not do?

[toodamnhip]

So if I use Ozone 4 to dither 24 bit down to 16 bit, then what?
I bounce to disc the file with bounce to disk set to 16 bit with DP dither off?

Yes. But you really don't have to worry whether Audio dither is on or off in that case because it's not active during bounces--even though the manual says it is. Now if you do a real-time mix with a plug-in dither active and export the resulting soundfile as 16-bit, then you would want to make sure Audio dither is off during the export. Though, again, my test show that it's not active during an export either, but from what I've read it should be.



c-ya,

Dan Worley

I would try your test with very quiet audio material, with soft verbs and decaying notes that decay down to 0 db etc..As , from what I understand, Dither doesn;t touch the higher volumes of data...just the lower bits, which is the soft stuff...
So make some piano VI's with decaying notes and lots of verb..real queit...and test those for Null...not a rock song