Varispeed audio in DP

[newrigel]

I just have to substantiate the importance of actually recording without any type of manipulation. I've never done these things and the guys I know don't either (and some are gold and platinum artist) so you all are telling me that we're in the minority because we actually perform without tricks of substrate manipulation? Alright, then I like being in the minority here because we are a dying breed indeed! Sorry, but in the circles I run in... if I slowed down the tape to sing a part, they'd laugh me out of the studio man! Same goes for a musician having to do this to perform.
I hope MOTU put's out a version without varispeed because some don't rely on it.
It seems I'm in the minority here... and I feel really good about it because I know my endeavors aren't massaged into being. I think most of the content people come to really appreciate wasn't accomplished through varispeed or tricks. But by inspirational, well rehearsed, capable raw performances. Again, I think there's plenty of DAW's out there to help massage your tracks into being without DP having to implement it...

[Phil O]

Just as a public service for people randomly skimming this thread -

If you want to tune 1/2 step below A-440Hz, you have to tune to A=415Hz. Not 430 or 435.

A 1/4 step below 440Hz would be at about 425 Hz, give or take.

End of PSA.

Just wanted to add some math to Kubi's PSA. To go up or down 1/2 step in an equally tempered scale, simply multiply or divide by the twelfth root of 2 (approx. 1.059). Continue multiplying or dividing by that to build an entire chromatic scale. For example 440 X 1.059 X 1.059 = 493.9 or B. You can easily build this into a spreadsheet for a handy studio chart.

Phil

edit: If you do the math you'll get a slightly different number. (I used my calculator's precision to get to 493.9.)

[stephentayler]

I just have to substantiate the importance of actually recording without any type of manipulation.

Then you have completely missed my point



Stephen

[newrigel]

If you look at a guitar tuner, if A is 440, 435 would (just rounded out) be a 1/4 step below.
Lots of metal touring acts are there. When we perform live 5 to 6 nights a week, it helps keep vocal longevity. No big deal.

Oh wait, we can use DP to varispeed the whole song and we can lip sync the whole tour!

[newrigel]

I just have to substantiate the importance of actually recording without any type of manipulation.

Then you have completely missed my point



Stephen

I see the point.
Hey Yngwie, were going to use varispeed to track this next passage ok?

Hey Rob, were going to use this new varispeed in DP to do this part here because I think it's a bit high for you and you'll loose your resiliency up there so here we go...

Sorry, but in the circles I run in, we avoid this crap like the plague!!!

[stephentayler]

I must be in the wrong forum

[David Polich]

Wow, Newrigel, ok, we get your point.

It's just an opinion, though, man. You seem to be implying that
those of us who would want to use varispeed are idiots or dishonest
or unethical.

Cheating in metal - oh I'll give you a good example. How many metal
bands drummers trigger samples from their kit? Plenty. Isn't that
"dishonest"? It isn't the actual sound of the kick drum the
audience is hearing, after all.

In industrial/goth/metal production, quantizing the "live" drum tracks
to fit with the loops is standard procedure. Wouldn't that be "dishonest"?

Maybe James should move this thread to the "Off-Topic" section because
it's degenerated into a silly argument about the ethics of using software
to fix vocal tracks.

[newrigel]

Wow, Newrigel, ok, we get your point.

It's just an opinion, though, man. You seem to be implying that
those of us who would want to use varispeed are idiots or dishonest
or unethical.

Cheating in metal - oh I'll give you a good example. How many metal
bands drummers trigger samples from their kit? Plenty. Isn't that
"dishonest"? It isn't the actual sound of the kick drum the
audience is hearing, after all.

In industrial/goth/metal production, quantizing the "live" drum tracks
to fit with the loops is standard procedure. Wouldn't that be "dishonest"?

Maybe James should move this thread to the "Off-Topic" section because
it's degenerated into a silly argument about the ethics of using software
to fix vocal tracks.

I'm not putting down any of these types of things. I'm just stating a fact that it's not common place to use them. And no, the drummers I know are just really good and don't sample OR quantize. Again, some need to and some don't. I don't know what magazines or articles or wherever your getting these ideas that metal drummers use all these ways of achieving a sound but the guy's I use just play... world class kits and abilities... no magic here, just bad assed mofo's he he. There's times we have (sampled) two different tunings of a kick with two different beaters, combined them to cut through and such but 99% of the stuff is just plain ol' direct performances to substrate... no quantizing, tricks, nothing. Oh well...

[newrigel]

I must be in the wrong forum

No, some like using tricks, some don't need to massage the takes into existence and that's all this is about is slowing down a tape to manipulate a performance. It's no big deal really... if you need those types of production techniques to record well cool. Some don't and we don't want these features included because we'd rather use genuine means. No harm done.

[stephentayler]

Well, fair enough.

I think I was just trying to talk about genres of music, sound and art (not to mention sound for picture) that exist beyond the world of metal.

Nothing about 'massaging' tracks for the sake of musicians, but manipulating sound for the genre in question, and I do get that these techniques have no place in your circles.

Anyway, audio recording, studios, equipment and DAWs and sound reproduction are all part of creating an illusion. Just about every process is a manipulation of what is natural, and there is never a right way or a wrong way to do anything.

Anyway, I have worked with thousands of musicians over the years, many of them completely brilliant, many of them quite well known. But even the most brilliant and accomplished players aren't too proud to experiment with recording techniques once in a while.

Cheers

Stephen

[jloeb]

Newrigel, do you understand that what's being talked about are literally two different art forms?

You're basically rehashing the ancient debate over produced vs. live music.

Don't worry, those who are great live performers will always dominate small venues. When you're in Java Joe's with a guitar, two mikes and a djembe (like Jason Mraz was in the early part of the decade), there's nobody and nothing to help you wow audiences except your own skill.

But: the recording is a different art form which frequently has different goals. Mraz is a good (if poppy) example of this. He is an outstanding live performer. It's interesting that many of those who had seen him live in small venues in San Diego early in his career had a negative reaction when his first label album was released. It was said to be "overproduced," "not him," "not showing what makes him good" and so forth.

But it did exactly the job it was supposed to do: it got stadiums full of screaming teens ready to listen to him.

Later, now that he's got a house to live in, he can worry about trying to do the very difficult task of conveying on recorded medium some of what was great about the more ambitious intimate live stuff. So who was "right" about that first album? Answer: it depends on the question you're asking.

We live in an era when the Gorrilaz (entirely a production act) have top selling albums, and time only flows in one direction as far as I can tell.

It is completely valid for the metal subculture to prize live performance and technical singing and playing ability. It is also completely valid for a producer to assemble a "band" from the ether, massage the living hell out of it, and put that wack ass craziness on hard disk so he can sell it online to people who prize sonics above performance.
Different means serving different aesthetics.

[David Polich]

Wow, Newrigel, ok, we get your point.

It's just an opinion, though, man. You seem to be implying that
those of us who would want to use varispeed are idiots or dishonest
or unethical.

Cheating in metal - oh I'll give you a good example. How many metal
bands drummers trigger samples from their kit? Plenty. Isn't that
"dishonest"? It isn't the actual sound of the kick drum the
audience is hearing, after all.

In industrial/goth/metal production, quantizing the "live" drum tracks
to fit with the loops is standard procedure. Wouldn't that be "dishonest"?

Maybe James should move this thread to the "Off-Topic" section because
it's degenerated into a silly argument about the ethics of using software
to fix vocal tracks.

I'm not putting down any of these types of things. I'm just stating a fact that it's not common place to use them. And no, the drummers I know are just really good and don't sample OR quantize. Again, some need to and some don't. I don't know what magazines or articles or wherever your getting these ideas that metal drummers use all these ways of achieving a sound but the guy's I use just play... world class kits and abilities... no magic here, just bad assed mofo's he he. There's times we have (sampled) two different tunings of a kick with two different beaters, combined them to cut through and such but 99% of the stuff is just plain ol' direct performances to substrate... no quantizing, tricks, nothing. Oh well...

The latest issue of Modern Drummer features ads promoting trigger systems
endorsed by well-known (in metal and hard rock) drummers.

From your comments I'd say that yes, you are in fact "putting down" what you
call "tricks". It's condescending and isn't necessary. Then again, having put in my time with a number of metal projects, I know the vibe - there's two kinds of music in the world - metal, and everything else. The only other genre I can think of that takes itself that seriously without merit is
southern rap.

[newrigel]

The guys I work with are asked continually to be in ads and say things, I have too. I don't because I don't use it nor endorse it. Good ol hard work and practice makes you a good drummer, singer, guitarist pianist etc... not varispeed, DSP and ways to trick one into believing something your not. To any aspiring new artist out there... don't rely on tricks to get you where you want to be. Does Michael Jordan use a spring board to reach the basket? Ask yourself if your genuineness is paramount to who and what you stand for. That's really at stake.

[zaratero]

I want varispeed to do the silly wow thingie for a comedy effect. I usually record it realtime. It´d be nice to draw and edit it.

[mrbillet]

I used to listen to my less imaginative metal LPs set to 45rpm to make it a little more exciting. I wouldn't do this to Slayer very often. I like Slayer.

My Chipmunks LPs are fertile ground for listening experimentation too. Play them back 1/2 speed you'll hear messages from Russia.

-Ian