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Mr. Q, thank you for sharing those thoughts; I most certainly agree with what you're saying.

The thing is though, that I'm really only talking about DP's getting off the bottom of the heap in DAW land, at least as far as sales and general industry perceptions are concerned.
The "including all VIs" thing just seems to be the fastest, most obvious route to said goal, IMHO.

Of course, for all we know MOTU has been whittling away at this in the background the last 18 months and is poised to unleash the VI and plug set from Hell on us.
Well, I can dream, can't I? It seems to be what I do best in DP.

.

But you definitively have a point, Nicky. I know you are not alone wishing DP included some serious or GOOD VIS bundle.
They could make so for DP, IN ADDITION to what they already have for stand alone.

This is totally a marketing decision, but DP's value, weather it is or it isn't MOTU's main income source, would be greatly increased if they bundled some good stuff. As you mentioned, just bread and butter sounds would be a huge value for a lot of DP users.

I can tell you something, though: for some reason, there's no way in hell I could picture YOU going to PC land for Sonar... or anything else. You've got DP written all over you, my friend

Mr. Quimper wrote: DP is clearly not their primary source of income/concern from a business standpoint and they most likely make much more money from their stand alone VIs than DP, especially since they are cross-platform in the DAW and OS sense.

Aren't "MOTU's VI's" still made by Ultimate Sound Bank in Paris - and just marketed and sold by MOTU?

Ha! That's a compliment of the highest order, Fernando; thank you!

I'm allergic to Windoze, FWIW.
I like to say, "Windoze is Windoze, no matter how you frame it", or "Windoze is Windoze, no matter how you dress it".

Glad I'm not alone in hankering for a heavier helping of VIs and FX.

FMiguelez wrote:Actually, MOTU spends a good deal of money on printed publicity. They announce their products on every major music magazine, either, in the back cover, or proudly full pages inside them (EM, SOS, VI, etc.)

But I agree that it would be good for some people if DP was given a very good VI or something with bread and butter sounds. Something good.

They all do it. Even Steinberg did it in Cubase 4 (by adding Halion 1).

To be honest, I’m not really including Pro Tools in this comparison, because (to me!) it’s not a composers / song-writers tool in the same way that DP/Logic/Cubase/Sonar/Live are.

Mr. Quimper wrote: Well someone's buying it.

http://www.sweetwater.com/c848--Virtual ... __Samplers

It's selling better than Structure in any case.

And for what it's worth, Electric Keys seems to be doing well also:

http://www.sweetwater.com/c716--Virtual ... nd__Organs

Coming just after Reason, Komplete 5 and Ivory in popularity? Not bad.

And their Ethnic instrument is really only one of two major choices to be had these days, it and Quantum Leap RA, so overall, I'm sure they're doing quite well on the VI front. Maybe Brad can confirm?

Well, ok, so they are selling well; good. If DP is their one software product that’s not doing so well then maybe in that case, rather than bundling VIs with DP, MOTU should bundle DP with each of their VIs?!

Having talked / listened to lots of other people on other forums, I know that Ultrabeat, EXS24 and Space Designer are important parts of the Logic “bundle” that have helped to sway potential customers. DP is definitely bottom of the pile in this respect.

But … as DP users, surely we’d rather have MOTU use their DP resources to make DP as robust as possible and add features than “waste” effort on bundles VIs….

Oh I give up - I don’t know what’s for the best!

The thing is, Tyrone, that once bugs are ironed out and as the need for new features diminishes over time, plug quality and quantity enhancement's about all there's left to do.

I've got a friend who runs PTLE. He's keeps raving about Expand!, which I think has multiple synthesis engines, and is a sort of HQ bread-and-butter VI.
Then there's Strike, digi's drum VI, something I sure hope MOTU will address in light of Model12's "lite" status.
Digi offers expansion packs for these sorts of things (and there are other VIs too), so at the very least, MOTU could do similarly with its commercial VIs.

I still believe that a greatly-enhanced baseline plug/VI set, with the option of perhaps upgrading to MOTU's existing commercial VIs, would be a sound move.
As I said earlier, there'd be no real need for MOTU to remove said plugs from the market anyway. In fact, the potential increase in overall sales and exposure could even allow a price drop on the already-well-priced range, thus furthering MOTU's cause, well, further.

That reminds me: Is there an option to buy all of MOTU's VIs at an all-in-one-bundle price?

FMiguelez wrote:.

But you definitively have a point, Nicky. I know you are not alone wishing DP included some serious or GOOD VIS bundle.
They could make so for DP, IN ADDITION to what they already have for stand alone.

This is totally a marketing decision, but DP's value, weather it is or it isn't MOTU's main income source, would be greatly increased if they bundled some good stuff. As you mentioned, just bread and butter sounds would be a huge value for a lot of DP users.

I can tell you something, though: for some reason, there's no way in hell I could picture YOU going to PC land for Sonar... or anything else. You've got DP written all over you, my friend

I somewhat agree with Nicky's assessment that DP is at risk in regards to expanding in the market because of the VI situation. The problem is that many of the newer people entering the DAW market are, rightly or wrongly, going to base their purchasing decisions on factors such as bundled plugins and VI's. So in terms of expanding market share, Nicky's point is valid - ignore quality bundled VI's and you suffer in comparison to other packages out there.

That said, bundled VI's, bundled loops, and extraneous bloat should not be the main considerations when selecting a main DAW IMHO. I can think of several factors that rate higher:

1. Computer platform
2. Workflow
3. Sound quality
4. Editing capabilities
5. Integration capabilities with other apps, particularly video
6. Stability
7. Integration with I/O hardware

...and so on...

But we live in a world where the perception of being "the best" is based on how much "stuff" you throw into the package.

Billy, the fourth plank in your decent-DAW manifesto was:
Editing capabilities

What good would DP's excellent (and somewhat revered) MIDI-editing prowess do if one didn't own outboard MIDI and hadn't yet invested in VIs?
A new-to-music-making user might be an example, or indeed, someone severely cash-strapped such as myself.

CPU efficiency is of paramount importance to many too, so DP's new-found VI efficiency (in 6) should be more than welcome.
However, what need is there of such efficiency for the prospective new user in the absence of a fat 'n juicy VI suite?

We could pick the bones of this subject 'till the cows come home; my only fear is that the horse has already bolted.

monkey man wrote:Billy, the fourth plank in your decent-DAW manifesto was:
Editing capabilities

What good would DP's excellent (and somewhat revered) MIDI-editing prowess do if one didn't own outboard MIDI and hadn't yet invested in VIs?
A new-to-music-making user might be an example, or indeed, someone severely cash-strapped such as myself.

Very true, but there are low cost and free VI's out there. And it's not like DP doesn't have some decent bundled VI's. The issue is that people look at Logic and Sonar and say:

- Where's the sampler in DP?
- How does Model 12 compare to Ultrabeat?
- How come I get all these JamPacks with Logic which contain software instruments, but DP gives me nothing?

That's the sort of thing new buyers are looking at, so on that point I agree with you.

That said, editing capabilities, or lack thereof, would be one reason for a new user to outgrow GarageBand, right? So logically, shouldn't editing capabilities be one of the top items for a top shelf DAW? I understand that bundled VI's are an important factor in DAW selection, and the buyer is the ultimate arbiter of what's on the list of must have features. So, maybe you represent the new market trend.

monkey man wrote:CPU efficiency is of paramount importance to many too, so DP's new-found VI efficiency (in 6) should be more than welcome.
However, what need is there of such efficiency for the prospective new user in the absence of a fat 'n juicy VI suite?

We could pick the bones of this subject 'till the cows come home; my only fear is that the horse has already bolted.

You might be correct. Certainly anecdotal evidence seems to back your assertion. We shall see.

PG wrote: Aren't "MOTU's VI's" still made by Ultimate Sound Bank in Paris - and just marketed and sold by MOTU?

Yep - the ones sold separately that is.

billf wrote: I somewhat agree with Nicky's assessment that DP is at risk in regards to expanding in the market because of the VI situation. The problem is that many of the newer people entering the DAW market are, rightly or wrongly, going to base their purchasing decisions on factors such as bundled plugins and VI's. So in terms of expanding market share, Nicky's point is valid - ignore quality bundled VI's and you suffer in comparison to other packages out there.

Exactly. And we just saw a typical example that supports that with the OP (and I mean this respectfully. No Vitriol --sorry. I HAD to use that word. I didn't know what it meant until recently)

And Tyrone's idea is not too bad. If DP won't bundle VI's, let DP be bundled with the VI's

billf wrote: So, maybe you represent the new market trend.

Hey, I represent that trend!

Always been a trend setter.

billf wrote:You might be correct. Certainly anecdotal evidence seems to back your assertion. We shall see.

What? I've never even met this "anecdotal evidence" chap, honest!

FMiguelez wrote:(and I mean this respectfully. No Vitriol --sorry. I HAD to use that word. I didn't know what it meant until recently)

Fantastic!
So, Fernando, I've taught you 2 words now:
Varmint and vitriol.

That'll do for the "Vs".
Next lesson, we move on to another letter.

FMiguelez wrote:And Tyrone's idea is not too bad. If DP won't bundle VI's, let DP be bundled with the VI's

Either way, we need MOTU to drop a bundle.

Mr. Quimper wrote:Considering that the total cost of all of MOTU's premium VIs is three times that of DP, I don't foresee them ever bundling them with DP unless they plan on charging $2000 for the package. After all, Mach5 by itself almost costs as much as DP!

I bet lots of Logic users thought the same before Apple bundled everything into the Logic package. If I remember correctly, people (who had bought the EXS24, Speace Designer, etc.) were quite bent out of shape...

Would be a helluva package: DP + Mach5 + MX4 + Symphonic + Ethno + Electric Keys + Some Loop Collection for say $695. The other instruments would still be available of course. I guess it's kind of the Ableton pricing model.

Problem though: Even at $695 people would STILL focus on the price difference and I don't think DP could sell that bundle at $499...

nk_e wrote:
Would be a helluva package: DP + Mach5 + MX4 + Symphonic + Ethno + Electric Keys + Some Loop Collection for say $695. The other instruments would still be available of course. I guess it's kind of the Ableton pricing model.

That would make DP the absolute market leader.

nk_e wrote:Problem though: Even at $695 people would STILL focus on the price difference and I don't think DP could sell that bundle at $499...

That's too cheap!!
And if someone complained about that price, after getting so much stuff, that person would be cheap too.
They could easily sell all that at least at 1.5K. It would sell a lot, and it would put the final nail on L's coffin
They could give the option to purchase DP as it is now, or with all those instruments maybe.

Monkey Man wrote:Fantastic!
So, Fernando, I've taught you 2 words now:
Varmint and vitriol.

Sí, Señor!
For some reason, I LOVE those words