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Shooshie wrote:

toodamnhip wrote:What did I miss?
I did a test on my system running 8.05, 10.6.8.

What you missed is that it works now. I'll let you go back and read it.

It's not theoretical. It works in Mavericks with DP8.05. Apparently not in other operating systems. There may be more to the story, but at least for now it looks like Mavericks fixed it.

Or maybe the DAW gods just love tormenting you, but happen to like me. That could explain a LOT of things!

Shooshie

I see, so if I ever get to Mavericks it will work? Oh..nice..duh!
OK, I accept YOUR apology.....
It’s a wonder we don;t strangle each other with all the confusing operating systems floating around. Everyone parked at their favorite OS, pan handling for “gas money” to buy the new up coming Macs.....to “FINALLY” be ..”up-to-date”....and then..Mac changes to a new chip..just cuz’ we were all looking so comfortable.
We sure have gotten to the bottom of this “VCA” issue haven;t we?

But wait, there's more. I'm running DP8.05 under Mavericks and getting the same results as Dan. There's something else going on here. It's not just a Mavericks thing, but if we're getting different results on different systems I'll go back to my original statement.

Phil O wrote:Yes, I recall having this discussion a while back. I had forgotten about this. It deserves further investigation, me thinks.

Perhaps it's time to get MOTU involved.

Phil

Perhaps it is a mouse/trackpad driver issue. I personally use BetterTouchTool and I find that it functions dramatically differently between 10.6.8 and 10.9.1. Specifically the x and y axes seen to have different throws and tracking.

Just for kicks, try moving faders first with "Enable Mouse Wheel for Sliders and Knobs" on, and then with it off. See what results that brings you.

I use a Magic Trackpad. But this problem has been around long before I got that. Come to think of it, it's also been around before "Enable Mouse Wheel for Sliders and Knobs" was available in the mixer.

Dan Worley wrote:Just for kicks, try moving faders first with "Enable Mouse Wheel for Sliders and Knobs" on, and then with it off. See what results that brings you.

I use a Magic Trackpad. But this problem has been around long before I got that. Come to think of it, it's also been around before "Enable Mouse Wheel for Sliders and Knobs" was available in the mixer.

Dan, if you type the value in a member of the group in the mixer (instead of moving the faders), do you also get the same results?

FMiguelez wrote:

Dan Worley wrote:Just for kicks, try moving faders first with "Enable Mouse Wheel for Sliders and Knobs" on, and then with it off. See what results that brings you.

I use a Magic Trackpad. But this problem has been around long before I got that. Come to think of it, it's also been around before "Enable Mouse Wheel for Sliders and Knobs" was available in the mixer.

Dan, if you type the value in a member of the group in the mixer (instead of moving the faders), do you also get the same results?

Yes. In fact, that's usually how I would do it.

Shooshie wrote:Well, we have a discrepancy. Watch this movie very carefully. It's not long:

http://youtu.be/ePH9kixvqos

Be sure to watch it at 1080p, full screen, so you can read the numbers. They contradict yours. What do we do now?

Shooshie

Watching Shooshie's video again more carefully, I've realized it paints a nice picture but it's best-case scenario. Starting with the highest fader at unity, moving down all the way to infinity and then moving back up to unity. I get the same results if I do that. But it's not a very real-world example. If you set up a test with the faders at -6, -5. -4, -3 and move them up one two or three dB, you will get disappointing results.

FMiguelez wrote:

Dan Worley wrote:Just for kicks, try moving faders first with "Enable Mouse Wheel for Sliders and Knobs" on, and then with it off. See what results that brings you.

I use a Magic Trackpad. But this problem has been around long before I got that. Come to think of it, it's also been around before "Enable Mouse Wheel for Sliders and Knobs" was available in the mixer.

Dan, if you type the value in a member of the group in the mixer (instead of moving the faders), do you also get the same results?

I get the same inconsistent results typing. It just doesn’t work right on my system.

Shoosie started a parallel post on this (pun intended). I posted there. Sorry. Here's that post:

Dan Worley wrote:Hmm. What happens if you set the faders to -7 -6 -5 -4 and then create the group. And then move the faders up? If you would, please try that. Thanks.

RROY wrote:It seems that if one of my grouped faders is at unity when I start moving them down then up they behave quite well, other then going past unity. If I start out with all faders some amount below unity, as I believe Dan suggested, that's when behavior becomes erratic. So, a workaround might be to have an empty track at unity before making adjustments. Not really the ideal situation though.

I don't have time to experiment right now, but it sounds like you may be on to something. It also would explain why I haven't seen this as a serious problem in my mixes. When I use group faders I usually add a "control" track with the initial setting of 0dB, and that's the one I move.

I'm off to work right now. I'll play with this more when I get home. Good work guys.

Phil

Phil O wrote:Shoosie started a parallel post on this (pun intended). I posted there. Sorry. Here's that post:

Dan Worley wrote:Hmm. What happens if you set the faders to -7 -6 -5 -4 and then create the group. And then move the faders up? If you would, please try that. Thanks.

RROY wrote:It seems that if one of my grouped faders is at unity when I start moving them down then up they behave quite well, other then going past unity. If I start out with all faders some amount below unity, as I believe Dan suggested, that's when behavior becomes erratic. So, a workaround might be to have an empty track at unity before making adjustments. Not really the ideal situation though.

I don't have time to experiment right now, but it sounds like you may be on to something. It also would explain why I haven't seen this as a serious problem in my mixes. When I use group faders I usually add a "control" track with the initial setting of 0dB, and that's the one I move.

I'm off to work right now. I'll play with this more when I get home. Good work guys.

Phil

Interesting..will have to try this.

I'll remind you guys that pulling faders down is not the problem, and pulling down and then back up will give you good results as long as you don't go over their starting values.

As soon as the faders go above their starting values, that's when DP starts adjusting for the differences in their throw, wanting them to all reach the top at the same time.

Adding a dummy track can't help us.

Dan Worley wrote:I'll remind you guys that pulling faders down is not the problem, and pulling down and then back up will give you good results as long as you don't go over their starting values.

As soon as the faders go above their starting values, that's when DP starts adjusting for the differences in their throw, wanting them to all reach the top at the same time.

Adding a dummy track can't help us.

Sounds like a "dummy" fader algorithm is already included in the latest build of DP anyway...lol

toodamnhip wrote:

Dan Worley wrote:I'll remind you guys that pulling faders down is not the problem, and pulling down and then back up will give you good results as long as you don't go over their starting values.

As soon as the faders go above their starting values, that's when DP starts adjusting for the differences in their throw, wanting them to all reach the top at the same time.

Adding a dummy track can't help us.

Sounds like a "dummy" fader algorithm is already included in the latest build of DP anyway...lol

Dude, the dummy is the guy who sits back and snipes at those who are making a real effort to figure this stuff out. We've got the answer now, at least part of it, if not all of it. Check the thread in the other forum if you want to know where things stand. Meanwhile, try contributing to the outcome in some way other than ridicule. I'd appreciate that.

Thanks,

Shooshie

Dan Worley wrote:I'll remind you guys that pulling faders down is not the problem, and pulling down and then back up will give you good results as long as you don't go over their starting values.

As soon as the faders go above their starting values, that's when DP starts adjusting for the differences in their throw, wanting them to all reach the top at the same time.

Adding a dummy track can't help us.

Dan, my point was that the "dummy" track I usually use is initially set to 0dB, which is at least the best case scenario that Shoosie used in his test. In the other thread that he posted he suggests a starting value of +6dB which I already thought about but haven't had a chance to try yet, but is sounds like a good work-around.

I'm off to work again. I'll check in tomorrow. Happy New Year, guys!

Phil

Phil O wrote:In the other thread that he posted he suggests a starting value of +6dB which I already thought about but haven't had a chance to try yet, but is sounds like a good work-around.
Phil

That doesn't work either. For a start, you can't use the dummy to increase levels from the initial setting. (If you aren't going to do this, there isn't a problem in the first place.) And if you use one the other faders to increase levels for the group, the relative levels are still compressed.