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Prime Mover wrote:But to me, drums are one of the most musical, most expressive parts of the mix.

As one who played in a number of local rock bands in my teens and twenties, I grew to er… dislike… drummers. But then I'd listen to my favorite groups of the time -- Chicago, BS&T, EW&F, Weather Report, and others -- and the drums were amazing, but very controlled. It took a few more years before I learned that a big part of the art of recording was in learning to handle drums, making them fit in that little space underneath the band, only reaching out for effects and surprises. I've never been a great fan of drums, but after learning how much certain drummers can add to the texture, feel, and musicality of a song, I had to conclude that drums are essential components to modern songs. But there are very few drummers who can do what Danny Serafine, Gregg Bissonette, Jack DeJohnette, and others of that calibre can do to a piece of music.

It seems to me that Compression is the most important tool for recording drummers. Get the drums contained into the space where they sound best, and you might milk a lot more talent out of "lesser" drummers. I avoid recording drummers as much as possible, but I'm always thinking about what to do if I'm ever in a position where I've got to do it and do it well in order to make the tracks worth working on or listening to. The many drummers I've played with have mostly convinced me that whatever else they may be good at, most of them just can't control the volume of sound that leaves their instruments. It must take an enormous amount of skill to play drums on that level, but for the rest it must take an enormously skilled engineer to make them sound like they can play like the best. Do we have any threads in the recording forum on what mics to use, and how to set up the best system for various kinds of drum sets and drummers? Are drums capable of destroying close-positioned microphones?

Well, I'm getting off topic here, but I know the day is coming when I can't pass the buck to someone else, and I'm going to have to record drummers who are used to people who know how to do it. I've got a lot of experience in a lot of facets of this business, but recording drums is not one of them.

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:Do we have any threads in the recording forum on what mics to use, and how to set up the best system for various kinds of drum sets and drummers? Are drums capable of destroying close-positioned microphones?

Woah dude... drummer steal your woman or something? I dunno, I may not be in a circle to know the best of the biz, but I'd say some of the best MUSICIANS I've played with have been drummers. Sure, there's the "Me want hit things!" crowd, but they're easy to spot. There's just as high percentage of good drummers out there as good pianists and guitarists. It's just a hunch, and maybe I'm being too forward, but it sounds like you may have a beef with the basic concept of drums... quite a few people do, especially within classical and folk circles (for different reasons, though). The drummers you mentioned are excellent, but there's still "good drumming" to be heard everywhere.

To answer your question... sort of... Yes, some drums are capable of damaging some mics, but from my experience, the only huge consideration is the kick. The SPL coming out of those things is extreme, and can easily damage a condenser microphone. You want a very large diaphragm dynamic mic to handle kick drums correctly... you get that and your okay. I have noticed that you can scarble a snare if the mic is too close (I junked a bottom snare track the other day because of that... I deserve to be shot).

Shooshie wrote:The many drummers I've played with have mostly convinced me that whatever else they may be good at, most of them just can't control the volume of sound that leaves their instruments.

It's tough to do and it's tough to teach. I really learned how to play soft well when I did a duo with a singer/guitar player. He was using a synth guitar and did a wonderful job of splitting the neck and running a bass line, but I digress. The point is, his music was rock/pop oriented but we often were in situations that required some pretty quiet playing. Brushes were not the answer. Light sticks didn't really cut it either. I needed to use meaty sticks but play really light without sounding whimpy. One needs to make the distinction between soft and pianissimo. It's an inflection thing. Kind of like listening to a rock tune on the radio with the volume turned down. It's doable, but it's a learned skill. One which many drummers never practice.

As far as recording drums in the studio is concerned, the biggest problem I see in the studio is that many drummers play with an unbalanced sound - usually right heavy (if right handed). Too much HH and not enough snare is often the case. One of my tricks is to use a HH mic (even if I'm not going to use it in the mix) and turn it up in the drummer's monitor. This will usually cause the drummer to adjust somewhat and pull back on his right hand a bit. Well, sometimes it works.

Phil

I should have been more clear. My dislike of drummers began in high school; have you ever heard high school drummers who think they're rock stars? By the time I was in the professional world, that was mostly behind me, and I fully appreciated the musicianship of good drummers, as I had always appreciated the greats like Serafine. Greg Bissonette was a classmate of mine; awesome musician. I began evaluating drummers based on their ability to create great textures at all volumes, given that their timing and musicianship were taken for granted if they were respected pros.

The world of pop music never was a good fit for me. I could stand the repetitiveness of the changes, the limpid lyrics, and narrow range of variations, but the volume? I just couldn't cope with it. I liked having ears that worked. I had to find places to fit in where the volume wasn't enough to blow the roof off. That's why I liked drummers who could play quietly.

I'm learning about recording drums. I've just never wanted to do that, but I'm seeing the inevitability of it. Besides, classical music is loaded with percussion. So far I've managed. I'll figure it out.

Shoosh

Having spent about 1/4 of my life banging skins, wacking brass, and shaking sticks, the thing I would caution some of you guys with is confusing the terms "drummer" and percussionist." There is a vast difference in many cases. Drums for some were/are a way of exerting their macho persona and there is some validity to that concept. It works. I know, I used to be a drummer. Prior to that and tho this day (and we're talking like 50 years now) I was trained as a orchestral percussionist. As such, the first thing one learns (after realizing that you are way in the back of the orchestra) is that it is not only possible to play softly, even with two 24" brass pie plates in your hands, but to survive as a musician, you need to be able to play them ppp.

Those with only percussive experience in bands and in clubs, etc. rarely, if ever, need those kind of subtle, controlled skills that most other musicians (with the obvious exceptions, again, of those playing hard rock only) need to have. But drummers have the problem that they can't just turn down the amp. They have to turn up the experience and discipline required for subtle, balanced playing.

That can come with practice, of course, but in some cases egos get in the way of the other part of that equation: guidance and the humility that is often required and just as often, lacking.

So let's be fair, drummers come in two flavors. Drummer or percussionist. D/P.

Choose wisely.

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Having spent about 1/4 of my life banging skins, wacking brass, and shaking sticks, the thing I would caution some of you guys with is confusing the terms "drummer" and percussionist." There is a vast difference in many cases. Drums for some were/are a way of exerting their macho persona and there is some validity to that concept. It works. I know, I used to be a drummer. Prior to that and tho this day (and we're talking like 50 years now) I was trained as a orchestral percussionist. As such, the first thing one learns (after realizing that you are way in the back of the orchestra) is that it is not only possible to play softly, even with two 24" brass pie plates in your hands, but to survive as a musician, you need to be able to play them ppp.

Those with only percussive experience in bands and in clubs, etc. rarely, if ever, need those kind of subtle, controlled skills that most other musicians (with the obvious exceptions, again, of those playing hard rock only) need to have. But drummers have the problem that they can't just turn down the amp. They have to turn up the experience and discipline required for subtle, balanced playing.

That can come with practice, of course, but in some cases egos get in the way of the other part of that equation: guidance and the humility that is often required and just as often, lacking.

So let's be fair, drummers come in two flavors. Drummer or percussionist. D/P.

Choose wisely.

I agree with most of what you've said,for me learning to play dynamically which actually took me a very long time is the difference between a drummer and a musical drummer.
I used to be a very loud drummer,the kind where sound men would turn down or turn off the mic's! lol
I think there's actually 3 groups,percussionists,drummers & musical dynamic drummers.
The greats who can play brutally loud can usually also play ppp when they want to,it adds to the range,color and tension.
As loud as someone like a Billy Cobham generally plays,bringing it down dynamically to ppp makes the loud parts more powerful.
In my experience the truly great drummers have a full range of dynamics and colors,whether they actually choose to play dynamically is more a matter of taste and context.

Actually, I wouldn't expand the definition, I would severely contract it.

There are good musicians and there are bad musicians.

Bad musicians can't control their output. Good musicians can.

Many fall between the two. The best ones often struggle every day to articulate within the range of expression desired while executing a precise set of notes and rhythms. If you can get that from a player there is little need to ask for more.

Soft dynamics is all well and good for turning it down in a live room. But in recording, it's almost the opposite. As an engineer, I want the drummers hitting the snare as hard as possible. Not because I LIKE IT LOUD but because it just sounds more focused. Look, if doing subtle jazz with ghost notes and the like, I could listen to anything, but what's excruciating is hearing a rock drummer who's scared of hitting the drum too hard (which is what I'm dealing with now). I'd rather deal with Animal than record a scared drummer. Many drums sound best when they are really punched... many cymbals sound best when they are caressed, finding a good drummer who can do that is very tough. But I can usually always fiddle with the overheads if the brass is too loud, correcting a wimpy snare is hell.

I just can't generalize music like that. I must be defective.

Prime Mover wrote:Soft dynamics is all well and good for turning it down in a live room. But in recording, it's almost the opposite. As an engineer, I want the drummers hitting the snare as hard as possible. Not because I LIKE IT LOUD but because it just sounds more focused. Look, if doing subtle jazz with ghost notes and the like, I could listen to anything, but what's excruciating is hearing a rock drummer who's scared of hitting the drum too hard (which is what I'm dealing with now). I'd rather deal with Animal than record a scared drummer. Many drums sound best when they are really punched... many cymbals sound best when they are caressed, finding a good drummer who can do that is very tough. But I can usually always fiddle with the overheads if the brass is too loud, correcting a wimpy snare is hell.

I say, why bother with trying to fix a "wimpy" snare. I don't- I just
replace it.