Upcoming library from Spitfire Audio "Albion"

[Shooshie]

I have a couple of entries to post in regard to the Debussy flute excerpt from L'Apres-MIDI d'une faune. First, we have one done in VSL:

http://web.me.com/Shoosh/Music/Shooshie ... LFlute.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I probably should have used the legato articulation throughout, in retrospect, but was trying to deal with an annoying problem whereby it simply would not sustain some notes long enough, so I switched to the sustain patch. That caused the lightly tongued articulations. If I could get the legato patches to sustain for the full length of those notes, I would have stayed with it. So consider that a possible limitation of that library which required some creative reconfiguring after playing in the part. The VSL by all means took the longest to create.

Next, Miroslav Philharmonik with IK Multimedia's Sampletank engine, which considerably expands the usefulness of those ancient samples. The result actually surprised me as remarkably expressive and fluid. So, it is evident that the samples themselves are secondary when it comes to expression; what counts is how the interface controls them. I was able to make this usable by speeding up the vibrato (using two Sampletank interface controls: Stretch, and Tempo) and by adding built-in reverb.
http://web.me.com/Shoosh/Music/Shooshie ... vFlute.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I could probably make even better sounding recordings, but I limited myself to working with what is within each sample library. The exception was reverb for VSL. There is probably a way to get a reverberant space within VSL, but I do not know it, and I didn't want to take the time to learn it, so I just added a touch of reverb externally from Altiverb. In all other cases, there are no external modifications to the sounds.

I had hoped to post the WIVI version, but I must have messed up a setting or something before I bounced it to disk. There was a problem with its vibrato that I need to fix, and that will have to be tomorrow. I really haven't had the time to focus on these things. The irony is that the WIVI was the easiest of all. I just played it. Bam… there it was. That was the extent of it. No reconfigurations, no key-switching to different articulations, nothing. What I played was what you heard. Flute is probably the weakest sound in WIVI, but it was mostly believable and the expression was nice. I'll get it posted as soon as I have a chance to find out what I did to it and how to get it back the way it was originally. Or I may just play it again, Sam. Sorry about that. I was playing around with other instruments in that interface, such as the horn you hear in all the excerpts, and apparently changed some settings on the flute accidentally.

Now, for reference, here is the one done in Spitfire by Andy Blaney (the revision):

• Audio file removed at the request of the owner.

What had concerned me was not the sound itself, which is really a beautiful flute sound, but the space "between the notes." Surely Spitfire will connect the notes as fluidly as VSL, Misoslav, or WIVI, but given the demos, I cannot say that with certainty. The mushy sound I'm hearing between notes was an unfortunate "feature" in most sample libraries up until the past few years. So, we have to make sure.

I hope this has been entertaining and enlightening, and that the earlier negativity of the exchange will be mitigated by the attempt to reach out and help make better known the needs of instrumentalists everywhere, while providing sample library developers a chance to see just how to go about that. We all just want progress.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

One more note about the excerpts: Flutists play this excerpt with extreme rubato. Maybe a better way of putting it is "sans tempo." I actually did them twice. First, I just copied Andy Blaney's part by ear. Then, realizing that the rhythm really wasn't much like the written version, I tracked down my score (a major undertaking in my house) and did them again, this time keeping the tempo and rhythm accurate to a degree within a normal rubato. They really are more-or-less as written. If you hear orchestral recordings, you may be surprised how far from this they deviate.

Cheers,

Shooshie

[Andy B]

I'm afraid we're just going to have to disagree on this very subjective issue. As you've demonstrated, there are lots of options out there, but I'm going to take my chances with the Spitfire.

Thanks,

Andy.

[Shooshie]

I'm afraid we're just going to have to disagree on this very subjective issue. As you've demonstrated, there are lots of options out there, but I'm going to take my chances with the Spitfire.

Thanks,

Andy.

Andy, please answer one question: why the swells between the notes? Is that you or the library? I mean, if that's how you choose to play it, I'll respect your choice, but not seeing why someone would play it contrary to every orchestra flutist in existence, not connect the notes, I just don't understand it. Is the library standing between you and connected notes?

I've been trying to get an answer to that question since the beginning, but nobody will answer it. I've gone to a great deal of trouble to demonstrate the difference I'm talking about. Could you or Paul please answer my one simple question? Will Spitfire's flute respond totally to any expression of the player without artifacts of a velocity envelope or shape to the sample? I've shown you three libraries that will.

Please separate tone from expression. I'm not talking about timbre. I think Spitfire's timbre is as good as or better than any of the above, though I could improve on all of them with EQ, but didn't for this demonstration. What you hear is what they produce. So timbre is not my concern. Expression is. The bane of sample libraries is their inability to accurately express sensitive music, just as the player performs it. As you can hear, Miroslav, WIVI, and to some extent VSL can do that.

Can Spitfire?

Shooshie

[Ned Bouhalassa]

I don't post here often, but man, what is going on with this forum? This thread is so childish...

Four posts in six years, and you pick this one to comment on?
How about a little disclosure here - do you have any interests that might be aligned to this topic?

I am a Logic user, because in the past, I found DP's GUI to be too different for me from what I grew used to in Logic. I have though used an 828 (first MKII and now, a souped-up MKIII) almost every working day.

As a full-time composer, I also am very fortunate to make a great living doing my work, and so I buy libraries like Albion in about the time it takes to pronounce it. I'm not shocked, but rather disappointed that you might insinuate funny business when it comes to my relationship with music software. I am a long-time moderator at VI-Control, and I can assure you that the members there would no longer respect me if I had conflicts of interest. (Except for Spectrasonics and U-He, for which I beta test).

The reason I decided to chime in? I guess that, being an old foggey, I've always thought of the DP community as featuring a great number of pros, people using DP on Hollywood soundtracks. I also have a great love for all sample-library devs - they keep me inspired daily, after all. And so, when I read that this thread was bashing the boys at Spitfire, I figured I should come over and see what the fuss was about. Surely it couldn't be that the DP pros are acting like KvR hobbyists, freaking out because they can't afford some virtual instrument or library? Surely DP pros understand that, when you have regularly have 50K or more budget for music, you can afford to have more exclusive tools? After all, the first violinist in a large city's orchestra doesn't play the same violin as 1st year students, right?

Anyhow, I made a mistake commenting here. The guys at Spitfire's can handle this thread, I'm sure. And Andy B is a god. Seriously, get on your knees, as we are not worthy of his skills.

[Ned Bouhalassa]

Oh, and Shooshie, Miroslav? Really? Is this 1996? Talk about refried beans...

[Ned Bouhalassa]

PPS: Shooshie, in my experience, built-in expression can be a drag, as it is very limiting. I much prefer adding the expression myself, according to the specific needs of a given line. I'm having great fun and success using Cinebrass, for eg, to create very musical brass phrases, changing timbre using the modwheel. I also am a fan of any library that allows you to control when and how much vibrato there is. And I'm not talking old-school LFOs here - recorded vibrati.

[davedempsey]

Shooshie has asked a question that really should be answered. It appears to me that Andy B has tried to avoid answering by calling it a very subjective issue - it is ,of course, not a subjective issue. It is clearly evident that the Albion flute excerpt sounds very good but is absolutely unconvincing in terms of expression.

@Ned, let's talk about re-fried beans..the Miroslav example posted by Shooshie is far more musical than Andys version. The Spitfire is superior in timbre, as Shoosh also stated, but it fails to convince. In that way it's like the most perfect looking re-fried beans that actually has no flavour. If Andy is a god for whom we should all wear kneepads than he should have no trouble posting a version with the connected notes as per Shooshies examples. A god should never serve re-fried beans that taste like plastic.

[labman]

Longtime Miroslav users here. (the full SCII lib). Still amazing life if you write 'to' them.

[Shooshie]

Surely DP pros understand that, when you have regularly have 50K or more budget for music, you can afford to have more exclusive tools? After all, the first violinist in a large city's orchestra doesn't play the same violin as 1st year students, right?

The truth, Ned, is that Itzhak Perlman or James Galway, in their day, could pick up a student's instrument and play circles around a hack on a Strad or solid-gold Powell.

And I think that the recordings speak for themselves.

Anyhow, I made a mistake commenting here. The guys at Spitfire's can handle this thread, I'm sure. And Andy B is a god. Seriously, get on your knees, as we are not worthy of his skills.

And I am Merlin, teacher of the gods. If you're going to be a god, you'd better play like one. I can show you how, but I must know where the problem is. Is it in Spitfire? Or Andy? Since only you gods can afford Spitfire, I depend on you to answer my questions, not to act indignant that I'd ask.

If the problem is Spitfire, I can tell you how to fix it.
If the problem is Andy, I can teach him to the extent that he may be receptive.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Oh, and Shooshie, Miroslav? Really? Is this 1996? Talk about refried beans...

And yet, oddly, it sounds the best of the four examples. Ned, I always thought the same thing about Miroslav. I have a very good friend who quietly encouraged me to try it, but I just ignored his efforts, because I KNEW what Miroslav was like, and where (and when) it came from. It couldn't be any good. Then one day IK Multimedia put it on sale for a price that made it impossible not to have it. I mean, if there was one single sound in it that I might utilize, I figured I'd best go ahead and have it sitting there, even if I used it only once. So, I got it and started figuring out the new Sampletank interface for it. What I found was that IKM had revised it and brought it up to date in the programming. It may be one of the most useful libraries out there. I didn't want to admit that, but when I told my friend, he was like "hey, I didn't want to push you, but I've been sayin'… " Yep, he was right.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

PPS: Shooshie, in my experience, built-in expression can be a drag, as it is very limiting. I much prefer adding the expression myself, according to the specific needs of a given line. I'm having great fun and success using Cinebrass, for eg, to create very musical brass phrases, changing timbre using the modwheel. I also am a fan of any library that allows you to control when and how much vibrato there is. And I'm not talking old-school LFOs here - recorded vibrati.

I'm not into premade vibrato, no matter how it's done. I prefer to perform it. It'll blow the pre-mades out of the mix every time. But there are almost no VI's which have made this possible. Why? Because the typical market -- most VI / MIDI performers -- could not perform a good vibrato if their lives depended on it. You can't make enough money marketing to people who play on the virtuosic level. Will Spitfire allow me to perform my own vibrato? I don't mean adding it with a pedal. I mean recording the exact movement of my actual saxophone vibrato via the WX-5, and transforming it into the breath impulse of a flute. If you want to get into tit for tat, I'm way ahead of you, my friend. And Spitfire almost assuredly doesn't do that. But I'd love to help Paul & Co. make it so that it will. If you're going to have the best of the best, it needs to be able to do that.

Until someone makes a VI that responds to MY vibrato, then I'm stuck down there with you lesser gods using pre-fab vibrati. That's the sad truth after all is said and done.

Shooshie

[Ned Bouhalassa]

Andy B is a god to me because of nothing to do with any sample library. It has to with his mockup of...

What am I doing? Pearls before swine!

Bye folks. Have fun with your virtual composing, I'm done here.

[davedempsey]

Andy B is a god to me because of nothing to do with any sample library. It has to with his mockup of...

What am I doing? Pearls before swine!

Bye folks. Have fun with your virtual composing, I'm done here.

That's very childish Ned, but not very well realized. My 13 year old daughter is much better at such displays. She, of course, has the opportunity to grow up, whereas you seem to have chosen not to avail yourself of the same.

[BKK-OZ]

I'm not shocked, but rather disappointed that you might insinuate funny business when it comes to my relationship with music software.

...and I am not shocked either, but I too am disappointed. Disappointed that you protest so much when all I did was suggest a bit of disclosure and you don't provide same. For mine, it beggars belief that just out of the blue, after hardly ever posting here, that you come in, and without any prompting, provide such an aggressive testimonial for this one product. I mean, how did you even know that this was a live topic herein - you obviously don't come here regularly, and then one day, boom!

Then you get so defensive - methinks he doth protest too much.

But sure, I'll take it on faith that you just happened to stumble onto this topic, and that you really do believe in god (Andy).