Varispeed audio in DP

[mrbillet]

My experience has been:

Slowing down a WAV sounds like crap, regardless of the quality of the recording to begin with.

Slowing down analog tape sounds awesome, assuming it was pretty good to begin with.

That said, I always record at 44.1k. Maybe a file recorded at 196k could handle some serious time/pitch manipulation. That's been my only argument for recording at super high sample rates. Maybe then you'd see some serious benefit in the massive file size, but I don't have hardware that can do it. In general I don't really mess with pitch anyway.

This thread is good because it's getting me in the mood to experiment and make noise.

-Ian

[newrigel]

The guitarist I work with use 7 string axes to get the thickness if needed, the bassist use 6 or 8 string basses... no pitch shifting or tricks. We'll tune to 435 (1/2 step down) to get some fatness. Never used any type of trick to do anything... just did it.
Like james said in the metal and hard rock circles, you don't slow down things to either play faster to them or to be able to sing to it... that's what auditions are for. You either have the balls and the range for voice, or your guitar technique is honed from practice, practice, practice! No effect can take the place of a well performed take.

[bongo_x]

newrigel;

I don’t think you’re understanding we’re talking about totally different things. You are talking about a type of music where you musicianship, technical ability, is on display, and part of the appeal of the music. If I bought an opera record and found out it was auto tuned I would be annoyed, and very put off. I don’t expect anything like that from pop music, or many other types. The musicianship is not the point. It’s totally irrelevant to me.

Different types of music are appealing for entirely different reasons. You can’t use the metrics of one type to judge another, that’s like saying Blade Runner isn’t very good because it wasn’t funny. But like different types of movies, books, whatever, some people enjoy many different styles and some only enjoy a few styles. Some people only read mysteries.

For me, musicianship has never been the number one criteria. But when I was younger I mostly only cared about songwriting, no matter what the genre. I loved Priest, I’ve never loved Maiden. The songs weren’t as good to me. I just didn’t understand how people could listen to some music (jazz, dance, etc.). I always said “but the song sucks” according to my criteria. I eventually learned that music≠pop song. Just like music≠technical skill on an instrument. And I started liking a lot more music.

I’ve been playing guitar for 30 years and have played in bands and been in music that whole time. I’m not very good. I’ve never cared enough, even though I feel I could’ve been very good if I made an effort. I make songs and want them to sound good. I don’t care whether you think I played it correctly or not. I’m not cheating because I’m not trying to fool anyone.

Arguing repeatedly that music isn’t good because you don’t like the way it was created or played is like saying David Sedaris is not a good writer because he’s not at all scary like Steven King, when the fact is simply that you like horror books more than comedy books, or just don’t think Sedaris is funny. That’s it. There is no right or wrong.

I will admit when you say 7 string guitar I make the sign of the cross.

bb

[James Steele]

Yeah... what he said. So it seems like you'd have to have a variable clock source that you could play with while playing back yes? Otherwise, DP has to do it in software somehow by applying somehow multiplying the constant clock speed by a variable clock multiplier... sort of like how a transmission changes the speed of the rotating wheels of a car even though the engine speed remains constant.

Yet... to record this effect it seems like you'd have to either patch DP out to something like Audio Hijack Pro that was running on its own clock... or go out your analog outs to the analog inputs of an independent digital recording device? Wow... maybe my Panasonic SV3700 doorstop would be good for something? LOL Seems like the cleanest way to capture it would be the analog out to analog in method? Dunno. Makes my head hurt. I'm glad I don't use this trick.

[newrigel]

Oh well... to each his own.

[Kubi]

Just a quick FYI - 435 is WAY less than a half step. You'd have to tune to about 415 to get a half step lower.

Ah, "practice practice practice" also applies to recording techniques and the physics of sound. Much to learn, much to learn. Open mind keep we always must!

[James Steele]

Ummm... okay Yoda!

[Kubi]

Of course I mistyped on my first post - hence the "edit". Oops, he he.

[bongo_x]

It’s actually much easier than it sounds. With varispeed recording if you want the pitch to be higher then you slow down the clock when recording, just like you’d slow down a tape deck. When you play it back without the clock it’s now higher. Just a couple weeks ago I recorded a strumming 12 string acoustic guitar that was just to fill out the chorus. We slowed the deck and recorded and played the guitar in a different key that matched the slowed audio. On playback it’s extra sparkly and chimey. Sorry, those are technical terms, I know. One side benefit is that the timing will be a little tighter.

If you want something a little heavier sounding, you do the opposite and speed it up during recording. The timing on playback will sound a little sloppier so you have to make it good, or fix it if you want.

Once you have the clock hooked up, or if you’re using a tape deck, it’s just a matter of hitting a button before you hit record and hitting it again when you’re done. That’s why all pro tape decks have that button.

Again, this is really a totally different thing than the OP was talking about, but he’s given up by this point.

bb

[bongo_x]

I want to repeat that this is not an esoteric or uncommon thing, it’s the very reason that tape machines have that feature. It’s so common that I can’t think of that many examples, but one I just read was the piano doubling the guitar solos of “Hard Days Night” if your looking to hear one (other than the KC track).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Day's_Night_(song" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

I believe the Beatles actually did it a lot. There are literally thousands of examples in songs you know, and that doesn’t count sound design in movies (where it’s pretty much constant). When everyone was using tape most pop albums probably had the varispeed turned on at some point. Now everyone just uses the pitch shift, but it’s a different sound.

bb

[newrigel]

My bad... I meant 1/4 step. 1/2 would be 430. I look at it in this way, if you have to change the pitch to perform to it, why not just perform it in a key that you can? Seems like you'd have a really imbarassing time on a stage trying to pull it off. I like to achieve @ least equal or better live compared to the recording (as pertaining to pitch) so everyones different I guess.

[HCMarkus]

Thank You Bongo X!

Newrigel, no one is trying to put you down for not using varispeed. The only reason you may be feeling folks are getting critical of you is your apparent willingness to dismiss others as simply "wrong" when you disagree with their approach to recording or performing music.

While having the greatest respect for your musicianship and knowledge about computers, I have noticed your tendency to offer harsh words for those who express opinions which differ from yours. I value your input here at MOTUNation, but respectfully ask that, as you post, you consider how your words may impact your fellow forum members. We are, after all, talking about an artistic endeavor. One person's art may be another's garbage, but we can all learn from each other as long as our minds remain open to new ideas.

I know I have learned from you, and thank you for your generosity in sharing your knowledge with the Nation. I will now return my transport to normal speed.

[Kubi]

Just as a public service for people randomly skimming this thread -

If you want to tune 1/2 step below A-440Hz, you have to tune to A=415Hz. Not 430 or 435.

A 1/4 step below 440Hz would be at about 425 Hz, give or take.

End of PSA.

[philbrown]

Newrigel, no one is trying to put you down for not using varispeed. The only reason you may be feeling folks are getting critical of you is your apparent willingness to dismiss others as simply "wrong" when you disagree with their approach to recording or performing music.

Indeed. It's like arguing whether a hammer is right or wrong. It's just a tool. Rather use a screwdriver? Go right ahead.

While having the greatest respect for your musicianship and knowledge about computers, I have noticed your tendency to offer harsh words for those who express opinions which differ from yours. I value your input here at MOTUNation, but respectfully ask that, as you post, you consider how your words may impact your fellow forum members. We are, after all, talking about an artistic endeavor. One person's art may be another's garbage, but we can all learn from each other as long as our minds remain open to new ideas.

Judging by past history I doubt this will have any effect, but nevertheless well stated and gets a +1000 here. There's no need to piss on someone else's idea just because you don't happen to want to use it. No one has ever said "Use pitch correction instead of practicing" or "You MUST do it this way" or "Talent, who needs talent?", and yet your posts read as though that is what the rest of us are saying. You're posting to some imagined version of what we're saying here and then are quite dogmatic and defensive of your viewpoint like it it's the only one that could possibly be correct. How could one idea or method EVER apply to all genres, all players, all situations etc? The beauty of exchanging ideas here is you get the benefit of so many different people's experience and methods. It's quite refreshing if you open your mind to it. And you can always say to yourself "Well that's a dumb idea" without feeling compelled to post it and put other people's ideas down. Like you don't have to walk up to everyone you meet and say "Hey that shirt is ugly" even if it is. Just walk on by and chalk it up to different strokes. Maybe the guy is colorblind.

[stephentayler]

One thing to remember around here is that Motunation is not just a forum for musicians, so all the talk about using recording techniques as ‘cheating’ or making up for poor musicianship is rather narrowminded and negative. I had 13 years of intense musical training prior to my 36 years working (primarily as a recording and mixing engineer) in the recording business, so I have a lot of experience to draw from.

These forums are all about MOTU products and software, and provide a great resource for all users, be they musicians, engineers, producers, sound designers, conventional or experimental composers etc, and they are a wonderful place to discuss creative ideas and techniques.

So if I want to varispeed that thunderclap to fit better with a music track, or if I want to tune an ambient cityscape to be more sympathetic with musical sounds, varispeed or tuning is useful, as opposed to pitch shifting.

So I use MachFive or export to ProTools to do it, it would however be lovely as an extra option in DP’s Audio Plugins menu. Which is where this topic started from.

kind regards

Stephen


BTW, DP’s Standard Pitchshift is not like varispeed, it is just suited to polyphonic content, as opposed to Pure DSP, which is intended for monophonic material.