MOTUnation.com

I'm likewise pleased that MOTU hasn't elected to either overly complicate or alter something that has pretty much worked out great since its first incarnation. Especially for someone who cut their teeth on old-school DAWS, there's both plenty of innovation in DP as well as a great familiarity with the tools and structure of the program. In my opinion, Logic is unnecessarily complicated. It should also be pointed out that they took much of their layout from an older and (believe it or not) vastly superior program for the Amiga OS in the early Nineties: Bars and Pipes Professional. Google it and see for yourself.

michkhol wrote:

fai31188 wrote:FWIW, what Frodo posted is not the mixer window in Logic but the mixer Window in the Environment in Logic!!! See all those virtual cables/lines???? That's what you have to deal with in the most dreadful thing called the environment!!!! It's anything but logical!

aL

Well, the Environment window seems quite logical for me. How about switching VI's on the fly from a single MIDI track? Converting notes to program changes? I doubt any DAW except Logic can do that.

DP has more capabilities than you think. But to begin with, why would I ever care about "switching VI's on the fly from a single MIDI track? Look at the mess you posted in that picture. Do you have any idea how easy it is to do this in DP? Just one keystroke duplicates the track, you apply the different VI to it, and set your solos up so that clicking one button switches back and forth. Sometimes the "less elegant" way is 10 times easier and maybe smarter.

Notes to program changes? I'd have to check to make sure, but I'm 99% sure that Custom Consoles will handle that without any trouble, in real time. Even invert it if you want.

I won't address your list of cons in a previous post. Only a few of them are actually Logic-favored. In some of them you simply missed DP's own features. But we would just end up in a back & forth over something that really has gotten tiresome. Some day when I have more time and energy, maybe.

I don't care what anyone says about Logic. After using both apps to record and edit MIDI, I'll NEVER do that again in Logic. It's just not worth the effort it requires. Ironically, it teaches a sort of clunky approach to MIDI that makes one slow to visualize DP's strengths when switching over. I've been over and over Logic with people who know it well, and I have to conclude that they've just grown accustomed to that way of working, which to me feels slow and difficult per time spent.

The one area that I concede Logic has DP squarely beaten is in handling loops and samples. In fact, the building-block approach to audio loops is apparently one of the chief attractions to many people who use Logic. You can slap together a professional sounding song in no time using the pre-fab method. Meanwhile, DP can handle loops quite well in its "assistant," UVI Workstation, or its uncle: MachFive.2. It's not the same as having them in the tracks, but it's still very workable. Like I said, Logic beats DP in this area, hands down, so, if your forte is writing 30 second jingles in under 5 minutes, that's probably your baby. Most of the guys I know who do jingles use Logic. However, one of them uses Pro Tools, and he's not even a musician. He couldn't tell you the difference between a C and an F#, and yet he does jingles for one of the largest radio stations in Indiana.

It's all so subjective. Just so subjective. I've no doubt that anyone proclaiming to like Logic best means what they say. For me, DP is irreplaceable.

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:The one area that I concede Logic has DP squarely beaten is in handling loops and samples. In fact, the building-block approach to audio loops is apparently one of the chief attractions to many people who use Logic. You can slap together a professional sounding song in no time using the pre-fab method. Meanwhile, DP can handle loops quite well in its "assistant," UVI Workstation, or its uncle: MachFive.2. It's not the same as having them in the tracks, but it's still very workable. Like I said, Logic beats DP in this area, hands down, so, if your forte is writing 30 second jingles in under 5 minutes, that's probably your baby. Most of the guys I know who do jingles use Logic. However, one of them uses Pro Tools, and he's not even a musician. He couldn't tell you the difference between a C and an F#, and yet he does jingles for one of the largest radio stations in Indiana.

I think you're wrong, Shooshie; unless I'm mistaken, DP (since 6) can now handle Apple Loops and the like, and even regular loops are easily handled with stuff like nanosampler. In fact, I seem to remember that being listed as one of DP 6's selling points. Granted, you can't build loop-based Acid-style tracks in fifteen seconds like in GarageBand or Logic, but for a program that primarily focuses on professional MIDI and audio features, I think DP does okay. Personally, when I want to use a loop in a piece of music, which isn't often, I open an instance of SampleTank inside of DP, so I don't even stop to consider loop handling functionality in a program like that.

James Steele wrote:Yep... I like Custom Consoles myself. Believe it or not, I still have an old EPS 16+ rack unit and I created a custom console that allowed me to navigate the front panel remotely from DP. Amazingly enough it STILL works in DP7 and Leopard so many years later!

Isn't that interesting. I've never used custom consoles...and that's one more plus for DP. It's got enough "stuff" so that you can customize it to your needs. My work environment may look entirely different than James', and that's what makes it cool.

To the OP - Dude, just buy it. You'll like it.

Phil

Phil O wrote:

James Steele wrote:Yep... I like Custom Consoles myself. Believe it or not, I still have an old EPS 16+ rack unit and I created a custom console that allowed me to navigate the front panel remotely from DP. Amazingly enough it STILL works in DP7 and Leopard so many years later!

Isn't that interesting. I've never used custom consoles...and that's one more plus for DP. It's got enough "stuff" so that you can customize it to your needs. My work environment may look entirely different than James', and that's what makes it cool.

One nice little trick with custom consoles is you can create what I call the "BIG FADER." I posted this "tip" once to user who was complaining that the fader throw on DP's mixing board was too short. You can create a custom console, then add a fader object and target the fader to the desired audio track. Made the custom console window the entire screen height of your monitor, (or screen width if you want if you made a horizontal fader), and then made the fader as long as will fit in the window. You then have an extremely LONG throw fader for adjusting a track's volume if you want.

Shooshie wrote: DP has more capabilities than you think.

I would be actually glad if it was true. I'm actually tired of switching back and forth between DAWs and I always appreciate a good advice.

But to begin with, why would I ever care about "switching VI's on the fly from a single MIDI track?

Suppose I don't have a sampler that can switch patches on the fly (and I didn't at that time) and I have to switch between four articulations in each MIDI track during the playback. I can have all articulation patches loaded as separate VIs or devices in Reason. How would you set it up in DP?

Notes to program changes? I'd have to check to make sure, but I'm 99% sure that Custom Consoles will handle that without any trouble, in real time. Even invert it if you want.

I was trying to do a much simpler task yesterday: convert mod wheel to CC 11 (expression) for the whole MIDI input using Custom Consoles. DP crashed. May be I was doing something wrong?

I won't address your list of cons in a previous post. Only a few of them are actually Logic-favored. In some of them you simply missed DP's own features. But we would just end up in a back & forth over something that really has gotten tiresome. Some day when I have more time and energy, maybe.

I wish you did, really. I was trying to mention only facts, something one cannot argue about. And I was trying to list features, not workarounds, otherwise it would not be fair.

P.S. I am not currently using loops but I agree with you on it.

michkhol wrote:Suppose I don't have a sampler that can switch patches on the fly (and I didn't at that time) and I have to switch between four articulations in each MIDI track during the playback. I can have all articulation patches loaded as separate VIs or devices in Reason. How would you set it up in DP?

I was always led to believe DP could address multiple MIDI channels in one MIDI track. I've never attempted such a thing, so I don't know for sure (I'll check), but other DAWs seem to be able to do this pretty easily (I could do it in Vision 4.2.2 in Classic, for example), and I can't imagine DP not being able to do this at all.

Addendum: in a couple of minutes of messing around with a DP 6.02 project, I discovered at least one way to do this, by using "Split Notes" in the "Regions" menu. I can't say for sure whether or not this does the trick (it may just copy info to a new track), but it does allow you to change just a region of notes or events to a different MIDI channel. I'm positive there's a way to do this without creating a new track.

Armageddon wrote: Addendum: in a couple of minutes of messing around with a DP 6.02 project, I discovered at least one way to do this, by using "Split Notes" in the "Regions" menu. I can't say for sure whether or not this does the trick (it may just copy info to a new track), but it does allow you to change just a region of notes or events to a different MIDI channel. I'm positive there's a way to do this without creating a new track.

I find the Split Notes Tool very handy for a great many purposes, including porting keyswitches to their own dedicated track(s).

Command-hyphen makes for the quickest start. If I haven't already set up a dedicated destination MIDI track, I can create one right in the Split Notes Window and move the notes in one single menu.

Get notes using COPY; send notes to ONE [specific] TRACK or to ONE NEW TRACK--- Separate notes by pitch... Also, using pitch criteria one can select all notes between user designated pitches OR by selected notes from the Split Notes keyboard.

Split Notes in combination with strategic folder nesting keeps my project organized-- and it's very quick work.

Frodo wrote:I find the Split Notes Tool very handy for a great many purposes, including porting keyswitches to their own dedicated track(s).

Command-hyphen makes for the quickest start. If I haven't already set up a dedicated destination MIDI track, I can create one right in the Split Notes Window and move the notes in one single menu.

Get notes using COPY; send notes to ONE [specific] TRACK or to ONE NEW TRACK--- Separate notes by pitch... Also, using pitch criteria one can select all notes between user designated pitches OR by selected notes from the Split Notes keyboard.

Split Notes in combination with strategic folder nesting keeps my project organized-- and it's very quick work.

I think michkhol is talking about having multiple MIDI channels addressed on one track (like selecting one or a series of "C" notes inside of one MIDI track and changing its channel so that just those "C" notes are being sent to a different channel on which a legato articulation might be loaded), something I've seen in other DAWs, like Vision DSP 4.2.2 for Mac Classic. I didn't get a chance to mess around with Split Notes enough to know whether it kept everything on the same track or created multiple tracks -- even so, it's a way to select and create new MIDI channels for regions of the same MIDI track. I'm positive DP can do this, it's just a matter of figuring out what its method is.

Thankfully, these days, most samplers either load different articulations on different keyswitches, different velocities or both, allowing you to address all the articulations on one MIDI channel, if you want. I desperately wish SampleTank supported keyswitching, but it does, to an extent, support veolcity switching.

I haven't come up with anything in DP except splitting MIDI track to several, one track per articulation. But this is an editing nightmare. As far as I know, no contemporary DAW retains or uses channel information of MIDI data. No note or CC message "know" what channel they come from and what channel they go to inside the DAW. Channel information is kept per track. So switching channels basically means switching tracks inside the DAW.
I switched to VSL since then but I still have that project in Logic and it still works.

michkhol wrote:I haven't come up with anything in DP except splitting MIDI track to several, one track per articulation. But this is an editing nightmare. As far as I know, no contemporary DAW retains or uses channel information of MIDI data. No note or CC message "know" what channel they come from and what channel they go to inside the DAW. Channel information is kept per track. So switching channels basically means switching tracks inside the DAW.
I switched to VSL since then but I still have that project in Logic and it still works.

Not true. Inside Vision DSP 4.2.2, for example, you can actually combine several MIDI tracks, each with their own channel, into one channel. The event information for each channel is retained, along with which channel it's being sent to. Another example: the creation of a MIDI 0 file, which combines multiple channels and outputs into one MIDI track. Theoretically, you could have a project with four MIDI tracks, each with their own channel, save it as a MIDI 0 file and open it in DP, which will then ask you if you'd like each channel on its own track or all channels on one track.

I had to deal with the many channels/one track issue decades ago. Well, at least 18 years ago. The answer from MOTU at the time was "one track/one channel." I checked with them again about 9 years ago. Same story. I don't think it has changed, but I'd have to experiment with device groups and such before really confirming that. No, the method I use is multiple tracks, and it's not at all an editing nightmare. Very easy to select what you want and alter it either in the Tracks Overview Window or the multiple-track MIDI Edit Window. When you can see all MIDI tracks overlaid in the same window, they are very easy to edit. The most difficult part is selecting the controller data that goes with each track. I have a shortcut for that which can be found near the bottom of page 2 of the DP Tips Sheet sticky thread in this forum.

Anyway, you just drag what you need to a separate track. The only thing that is at all tricky is to make sure that you leave controllers in the OFF position (value of 0) at the end of any block of MIDI data, so as not to keep playing, and with most VI's you probably don't even have to do that.

You say you want "features" and not "work arounds." DP is designed for customized workflows. One person's coolest feature may seem like a workaround to another, but that customizability is one of the reasons I love DP. The shortcut in the Tips Sheet may seem arkane to some, but for precisely the need that this user has proposed, that shortcut works wonders.

Most of my workflows have originated with a problem that I studied for a while, looking for a "feature" that solved the problem. In the process, I learned what the actual parameters were for each such problem, and then was able to take existing features and customizable commands (Commands Window: SHIFT-L) and string them together so that in a few keystrokes I had what I wanted. I've used the Search command extensively in this way, and I've used Custom Consoles extensively, too. But the Commands Window is the gold mine. That's where you find the commands not listed in the manual. Print it out and index it if you can.



Those index tabs are merely pieces of Post-It Notes that I've written on, cut out, and folded double to seal together and latch on both sides of the page. I know it is a lot of work, but it saves me a lot of time.

That's how I do things. Once you've created a workflow for your specific needs, that method seems very natural, even though it may be unique to you alone. DP is deep, but not difficult. It just takes time to find all the advanced features.

Still, multiple MIDI channels through one track... I don't think that's going to happen in DP.

Selection is the focus here. You've got to be able to select what you want and drag it quickly to other tracks in the Tracks Overview window. It's fast to create another track, even an identical one, data and all. You can use MIDI faders to bring them up or shut them off. With Custom Consoles, you can even group faders so that one works backward from the other, creating instant crossfades with a single stroke of a fader.

There's more, but I have to go now...

Shooshie

Shooshie,

I'm thrilled. You seem to be the Master of Commands. I'll appreciate any more advice you can give.

I just want to make a clarification. I didn't say I wanted "features", I said it would not be fair to compare features and workarounds. I don't mind workarounds, I use them where I can. To be even more clear, I will give you my understanding of feature vs workaround. Using custom Commands in DP is a feature. Building a custom Environment in Logic is a feature. Splitting a MIDI track into several ones for the articulation's sake is a workaround. Using a third party program to compensate for a non-working feature is a workaround. Basically I consider a workaround anything that I have to do not in a way I want it to do. So a workaround for one could be a normal workflow for the other.

Shooshie wrote:I had to deal with the many channels/one track issue decades ago. Well, at least 18 years ago. The answer from MOTU at the time was "one track/one channel." I checked with them again about 9 years ago. Same story. I don't think it has changed, but I'd have to experiment with device groups and such before really confirming that. No, the method I use is multiple tracks, and it's not at all an editing nightmare. Very easy to select what you want and alter it either in the Tracks Overview Window or the multiple-track MIDI Edit Window. When you can see all MIDI tracks overlaid in the same window, they are very easy to edit. The most difficult part is selecting the controller data that goes with each track. I have a shortcut for that which can be found near the bottom of page 2 of the DP Tips Sheet sticky thread in this forum.

I'm not sure enough people would even use a "many channels/one track" feature to justify its existence. Personally, I'll use as many MIDI channels as needed (drums come to mind, where you'd want separate kicks, snares, toms and overheads) and just organize them by channel. A MIDI 0 import wouldn't work? Or would it arbitrarily just split up the channels into different tracks on importing?

Shooshie wrote:I had to deal with the many channels/one track issue decades ago. Well, at least 18 years ago. The answer from MOTU at the time was "one track/one channel." I checked with them again about 9 years ago. Same story. I don't think it has changed, but I'd have to experiment with device groups and such before really confirming that. No, the method I use is multiple tracks, and it's not at all an editing nightmare. Very easy to select what you want and alter it either in the Tracks Overview Window or the multiple-track MIDI Edit Window. When you can see all MIDI tracks overlaid in the same window, they are very easy to edit. The most difficult part is selecting the controller data that goes with each track. I have a shortcut for that which can be found near the bottom of page 2 of the DP Tips Sheet sticky thread in this forum.

Anyway, you just drag what you need to a separate track. The only thing that is at all tricky is to make sure that you leave controllers in the OFF position (value of 0) at the end of any block of MIDI data, so as not to keep playing, and with most VI's you probably don't even have to do that.

You say you want "features" and not "work arounds." DP is designed for customized workflows. One person's coolest feature may seem like a workaround to another, but that customizability is one of the reasons I love DP. The shortcut in the Tips Sheet may seem arkane to some, but for precisely the need that this user has proposed, that shortcut works wonders.

Most of my workflows have originated with a problem that I studied for a while, looking for a "feature" that solved the problem. In the process, I learned what the actual parameters were for each such problem, and then was able to take existing features and customizable commands (Commands Window: SHIFT-L) and string them together so that in a few keystrokes I had what I wanted. I've used the Search command extensively in this way, and I've used Custom Consoles extensively, too. But the Commands Window is the gold mine. That's where you find the commands not listed in the manual. Print it out and index it if you can.



Those index tabs are merely pieces of Post-It Notes that I've written on, cut out, and folded double to seal together and latch on both sides of the page. I know it is a lot of work, but it saves me a lot of time.

That's how I do things. Once you've created a workflow for your specific needs, that method seems very natural, even though it may be unique to you alone. DP is deep, but not difficult. It just takes time to find all the advanced features.

Still, multiple MIDI channels through one track... I don't think that's going to happen in DP.

Selection is the focus here. You've got to be able to select what you want and drag it quickly to other tracks in the Tracks Overview window. It's fast to create another track, even an identical one, data and all. You can use MIDI faders to bring them up or shut them off. With Custom Consoles, you can even group faders so that one works backward from the other, creating instant crossfades with a single stroke of a fader.

There's more, but I have to go now...

Shooshie

If I was half as organized as you it would be scary...

Inspiring as always shooshie