A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

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Artspoke
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by Artspoke »

Originally posted by toodamnhip:
More reliance on Operating systems designed to do many things well, such systems constantly upgraded and changing with or without MOTU's approval, such systems bowing to many masters so to speak= More chances for random results.

Corrolary-----(second law stemming from a previous truth or logic)

To the degree you operate in your own world that you control= more predictable results, i.e. stability.
It doesn't feel to me as though there is an equation to these two statements. Do you think that hardware provides a world that is your own, which you control - more than software? I agree with you in that there are fewer variables when you replace code with hardware, but that's due to the fact that the code in the hardware is embedded in such a way that we can't control it.

As far as fewer conjugations = fewer negative conjugations I agree, but only if you allow for the same reduction in positive conjugations. Perhaps that software is more tweakable, we are provided with an environment that we can control more, for better or worse.

So I think NO. Fewer options doesn't seem to guarantee or doom a platform. I think it would be a far better proposal to assume the obvious - this is a complex set of tasks we icur on our machines, that is bound to cause mahem. That said, ease of tweakability would seem to put us on the best possible path.

Since software is more easily tweaked than hardware, we typically see many more software revs than hardware, so I lean toward software that is tweakable, and more importantly, more often tweaked. In this way, we can sus out the issues while the software is being developed, then it could be released as hardware once we all bless a given rev.

Who's to say DP 5 won't earn that blessing? Or PT 7? We certainly don't want our expensive hardware to become obsolete or at least more buggy when OS XI is released! We do, afterall, put nearly all of our expectations for revision in software. I estimate 95% or more of the posts in these forums (hardware and software both) are looking to software to solve our issues. Do we typically expect that a hardware issue would be the cause, or that the software driving the hardware is to blame?

-James
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sdfalk
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by sdfalk »

Hey SDFALk....

though you ripped on me a bit, which I really payed no attention to by the way...I noticed you're from Banff Alberta...

Beautiful place man!..I'm jealous...


Yeah I can see that..

and yes it is.
A 2018 Mac mini with 16 gb of ram
HUGE bunch o' AU instruments/fx...
A Metric Halo ULN8-3D…mmmmmmm
Remember to eat all your fruits and vegetables!
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newrigel

Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by newrigel »

What would really be cool is if MOTU made thier OWN DSP cards....

Just a thought!
Last edited by newrigel on Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
chrispick
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by chrispick »

Originally posted by newrigel:
What would really be cool is if MOTU did thier OWN DSP cards....

Just a thought!
I think this was Timeline's suggestion (or implication) on page one of this thread. And yeah, it could be a cool idea.

It appears to me that MOTU's focusing on hardware and VIs as growth markets. This could fit into that plan.
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TheCoalman
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by TheCoalman »

Is there really a Mrs. Motu?

LOL
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midiot
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by midiot »

About four years ago I seen with my own eyes in the Digidesign/Avid factory in CA, they have a Martin the MOTU Martian with a big red circle NO slash thru it, found in the hall to the workers bathroom, so this subject has been raging since before Twelve Tone changed their name (how is that for back in tha day). In my humble opinion to address ••œturnkey systems••Â
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PaulyD
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by PaulyD »

Originally posted by bradswan:
Hey you guys--all this talk about Mrs. Motu's panties is starting to turn me on. If anyone has a picture could you please post.
LMAO!

I think what everyone is trying to say here (and rightfully so) is that anything can be stable and anything can be unstable.

At one time, I would have given Pro Tools hardware an edge over host based systems for stability, but not anymore. Not under OS X. And it's not that Pro Tools has gotten worse, everyone else has caught up to Digi'. I think a lot of that has to do with OS X and its stability.

A buddy of mine with a Pro Tools Mix system has way more problems than I have with my host based system. Trust me. I'm the one he calls when he needs help... :roll:

Paul
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by Nama »

OK, in my experience, (MY) PT LE on OS9 with the digi001 almost never crashed.

(Our) PTHD on OSX has lots of problems. Sometimes forced to quite.

DP4 crashes as well. DP3.1 crashed at least once a day.

Peace,

<small>[ April 20, 2005, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Nama ]</small>
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by Fibes »

Dedicated hardware systems alleviate the problem between the seat and the keyboard, that's it.

The only thing DIGI has going for it is internal DSP and ADC for external stuff.

That's it. Go ahead and pick nits but in reality these are the only two things that keep me thinking PTHD (not LE.)
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chrispick
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by chrispick »

[quote]Originally posted by midiot:
In my humble opinion to address ••œturnkey systems••Â
Resonant Alien
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by Resonant Alien »

Good......discussion......Maybe a little practicality?

First, lets face the reality that the core piece of hardware and heart of our studios these days is a relatively inexpensive piece of consumer equipment - a Mac. Gone are the days when the heart of our studios was several hundred thousand dollar, specially designed and purpose built console and 2 inch tape machine. The core of our studio is now something that a 15 year old can buy at CompUSA for a couple of thousand bucks and mainly uses to store his iTunes collection.

Next, lets face the reality that most of us are plug-in sluts. We likes our plugs and we likes them a lot. AU is an open interface that any joe blow can write a plug in for and any joe blow can download and install.

We also like tweaking our systems - adding bigger hard drives, more memory, wireless keyboards, MIDI controllers, etc., etc.

Most of us also take the OSX updates the day they come out (maybe after checking here to make sure it hasn't torpedoed someones system).

If we want to eliminate ALL the variables and run a lean-and-mean DP system, it's pretty easy. Go into your Mac's Finder, search through all the folders on your system, find everything that is not a piece of MOTU-developed software, or that is not needed by OSX to function, and delete it. And yes, this includes all your beloved third party plugs not developed by MOTU. Don't take OSX updates unless you get an OK from someone at MOTU, and never add hardware to your Mac.

If MOTU were to spec out a "known good" system, it would probably look something like that. How many of us would actually be happy with a system like that?

I'm not saying DP couldn't stand some improvements, and there should be a common set of known variables that they test each release of DP against, but in MOTUs defense, we can't really expect them to test and certify that DP is kosher with every AU plug on the market, or even every MAS plug on the market, or every version of OSX. If they did that, they would spend all of their time validating that DP is OK with all of this other stuff and never get new features out. As soon as you start adding 3rd party plugs, you are opening yourself up to potential software funny business. That's just the reality of our world. (Sometimes it makes you long for the days when using a new effects box only required your 1/4" cable to be good).

Finally, forget for a minute whether or not DP is truly more or less stable than PT HD/TDM. For the sake of argument, let's assume that PT HD is more stable than DP. It's really not a fair comparison then is it? What does a typical PT HD system run these days? About $10-15k I believe? What about DP? $395 last time I checked. Now, [Devil's Advocate hat on] if I paid $10k for a PT HD system, it damn well better be more stable than a $400 system, don'tcha think? The fact that DP is considered by many as a viable competitor to PT is a testament to the software in this regard if you ask me.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Mr. Lead Singer Dude is unhappy with the mix I am sending to his phones, so I'd better go and appease him. Here's hoping DP doesn't crash during his take, or I WILL be in trouble. :D

<small>[ April 20, 2005, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Resonant Alien ]</small>
...
chrispick
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by chrispick »

Originally posted by Resonant Alien:
Good......discussion......Maybe a little practicality?
Dude, you didn't add anything that hasn't been contributed to this thread already. That said, I agree with everything you wrote. Which is to say, right on!

<small>[ April 20, 2005, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: chrispick ]</small>
midiot
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by midiot »

What about the same plugs with ridiculously different cost for the two? i.e. Waves. Is that maybe why Digi made Bomb Factory proprietary with their wares for stability? I know of a few people pissed about that.

Wow, just makes my wallet hurt thinking about stuff like this.

Kind of off the subject but what happened to Ensoniq Paris or Creamware systems, I used to see them around regularly.
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dixiechicken
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by dixiechicken »

Intresting views here so I might as well...

It is not necessarily true that hardware is more stable than software. It is all about design and implementation.

(I once set up a RedHat linux server at my work running for 4 years straight with NO downtime - a lucky combination of good hard/software ;) )

Almost any hardware box these days like a harddrive or
my usb MTP AV has both hardware/software.

(there's no straight boundaries any more - my MOTU-828 has lost connection couple of times with my imac - no I dont know for certain if it's software related or hardware related)

1999 I recorded 4 songs with my band in ProTools equipped studio.
(with DSP-cards Seagate 10000rpm scsi-drives etc etc)
The Windows-NT4 driven PC crashed all the time due to severe file fragmentation on the harddrives.
( like 5 times a day :confused: Diskeeper here I come )

This was, I am certain, no fault of ProTools - it was
the fault of a crappy os-system that simply wasnt
made handle this type of job.

To run a stable system you must keep it simple.
eliminate as many variables as possible.
On general principles then, to add DSP-cards to an
otherwise lean setup, will ADD variables and thus
make the whole setup MORE unstable.

This is not an absolute truth of course, as I said
there is no clean boundaries anymore, it is all about design and implementation.

Cheers: Dixiechicken
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Re: A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

Post by toodamnhip »

Remember every one, maybe I should not have mentioned Pro tools at all, the real point is the logic of an ever changing system and the percentage of reliance DP has on it compared to self powered systems already out or yet to be developed. I enjoyed Resonant alien's logic but disagree with one thing..I THINK MOTU CAN DEDICATE A GUY TO BUYING ALL THE LATEST STUFF AND WORKING ON FINDING BUGS AND SYSTEM OPTIMIZATIONS, POSTING DATA WAY MORE OFTEN AND TAKEN SOME OF THE DAMN BETA TESTING OUT OF THE USERS' HANDS.
One guy could do that all day, every day! Maybe one guy does but is not allowed to tell us anything?
The guy could be named "Ken" for example. He could have a place on the site called, "Ken's Corner" where he is like the unicorn nations user representative-letting us all know tricks and fixes and things he finds as he finds them. It would take a whole lot of honesty from MOTU now wouldn't it?
What do you all think of MOTU doing that?

<small>[ April 20, 2005, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: toodamnhip ]</small>
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