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I'm still a little curious as to what it was that led to Tascam dropping Giga. Was it market saturation? Was it the universal sampler that did it? Despite options to come, and even though I don't use Giga, I'm still a little in shock about why/how all this happened.

carrythebanner wrote:

Shooshie wrote:Anyway, GigaStudio folks shouldn't feel too bad. There will always be samplers that play the Giga format. It's just that there are so many ways to lose your money in this racket.

One thing Giga users might want to keep their eye on is LinuxSampler (which despite the name is available in varying states for Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X), which provides a way to playback and edit .gig files. I've played around with it a little bit on OS X and Windows XP and I found it interesting (if a bit unpolished); I think the client/server model is a good choice in this particular case, especially if it scales well & can be managed across different computers.

There's no guarantee that an open source project won't be dropped just like any other proprietary project (though maybe for different reason), but perhaps this recent turn of events will encourage development to keep pushing ahead. Who knows, maybe someday the Giga PC farm crowd will be running Linux instead of Windows.

Thanks for the link. This really looks like a great project.

Frodo wrote:I'm still a little curious as to what it was that led to Tascam dropping Giga. Was it market saturation? Was it the universal sampler that did it? Despite options to come, and even though I don't use Giga, I'm still a little in shock about why/how all this happened.

Me too, although I wonder if the dreaded Gibson Effect is at hand here. Tascam, like Gibson, is deeply rooted in the hardware business, so perhaps software was something they are incapable of managing properly.

From reading various forums it seems that the last straw was Sonivox deciding to develop their own player, and thus there are now no major libraries being built for Giga.

billf wrote: Me too, although I wonder if the dreaded Gibson Effect is at hand here. Tascam, like Gibson, is deeply rooted in the hardware business, so perhaps software was something they are incapable of managing properly.

The Gibson Effect-- hmm. Very interesting. If hardware is not hitting quite the mark while at the same time providing revenues for a more immediate effect, then it follows that the focus on the real purpose of software would go blurry.

I've also been thinking about the long wrestle for format dominance. I think it was here on U-nation quite a few years ago in its first incarnation that we prognosticated that such formats would coexist without much conflict. That's where the chat ended, but I still wondered as more questions were being asked about sample libraries in MAS format were increasingly difficult to find.

Then, take the assumed best of all possible scenarios: The PC platform with an unequivocal market share with Giga enjoying a happy championship by people from Jan Hammer all the way down the ladder of artistic prominence among advocates of electronic music tracking. One summer morning in 2008 it's suddenly "ta-ta Giga".

How has the paradigm shifted and to where, exactly, has it shifted? Hardware samplers haven't made a comeback. It's clearly computers, but this still seem to be more hardware related. What is it that has moved in to displace Giga?

And if it's not Giga itself, then is it sample formats in general? If that's the case, what does that mean for other more "open" formats which might be run in a universal sampler? If the diversity of formats is narrowing, does that bring the universal sampler much closer to the status of a rompler?

I recall it being said (and reiterated in the past day or so) on the VSL forum by members of their team how difficult it was for them to get their library into MachFive for a variety of reasons:

VSL wrote:...i don't want to sound too discouraging, but years ago (actually bfore kontakt) we tried to convert the VSL sample libraries to mach V and EMU-X and failed massively - both samplers are using a proprietary format that did not allow to integrate the performance tool.
with mach V it has been the strange order for layers and EMU-X converted all wave files into something else.

I'm only about 75% sure of what that means since this statement represents the most detailed of its kind where VSL and MachFive are concerned.

While basic VSL samples can run fine in MachFive, it's those special performance tools that make VSL come to life. The way it handles legato and other "connective tissue" go so much further than I've seen in other libraries-- at least where knob-and-fader control is concerned (as opposed to breath controllers). "Universal" suddenly seems not so universal. This is what I meant by the battle for format dominance-- where the fallout from efforts by a hoard of developers to be THE proprietary format has left a web of dead-end streets.

If a company like VSL was to continue and survive, then they themselves had no choice but to stop licensing a wide array of engines and writing and troubleshooting for each-- where the cost of doing so matches or exceeds development costs for just rolling their own.... which is what they did.

Or is it simpler than all of this? That romplers have ranged from being simple, mindless plug-and-play methods of getting to an end even where the higher end romplers share the residual slings and arrows of potential format withdrawal is always a possibility/probability; that these romplers have basically undone the value of even consolidating Giga into GVI and GS3/GS4 to work in a similar manner as VSL has done with its own interface? Many users have reported that GS4 had its share of bugs-- is it just too hard to for developers to get it right?

And-- what about Naomi?

These are just thoughts in the form of rhetorical questions. Please forgive me, but I've find myself equally fascinated and dumbfounded by it all-- on top of the fact that DP6 is really shipping!!

bdr wrote:From reading various forums it seems that the last straw was Sonivox deciding to develop their own player, and thus there are now no major libraries being built for Giga.

I guess it's the age-old matter of "who knew what when". This would imply that Sonivox dumped Giga *before* Tascam did. Couldn't it work either way-- that Tascam's biggest support pulls out first, leaving a gaping hole in potential revenue-- or --

...that Tascam pulls out first and leaves its biggest supporters with no other choice but to roll their own?

Interesting, and here we thought SONiVOX was reacting to tascam, and not the other way around. Can this be confirmed, or is it hearsay?

Hmm-- Here are some snips from around the web that shed some additional light on the matter while echoing much of what has already been said:


http://forums.oreilly.com/content/Audio ... ga-Studio/

"It seems the trend among developers today is to move away from open platforms and back into the dark ages of proprietary locked incompatible systems (anyone remember the days before MIDI?). Many new sample developers are each writing their own proprietary sample platform software with their own UI and dongle locks. This protects developers from piracy but at a very steep cost to the end user who must now ultimately pay a much higher cost both in terms of price as well as needing to learn and deal with multiple different platforms, UIs and software protection schemes.

...And, as in the case of GIGA Studio, it shows the vulnerability that users now face to any sudden decision by a developer who suddenly ceases production or goes out of business."

"...It’s no industry secret that SONiVOX worked out a licensing agreement with TASCAM on their GVI player for MUSE..........

The PC version of Muse and SONiVOX’s downloadable instruments have been out for some time, but the Mac version of Muse is still not out, nor the Mac versions of their downloadable programs as SONiVOX is still waiting for TASCAM to finish GVI for Mac.

With this press release, without openly saying so, SONiVOX, an American company substantively smaller than either Tascam or their publicly traded parent, TEAC, has beaten the Giant to market by creating their own dual platform player for both PC and Mac with product ready for shipping by late July early August."

Okay-- so SoniVox pulled out first and Tascam said "screw it-- and the rest of the world"... because they (Tascam) dragged their feet with development-- keep reading....

"...the unwritten story is that SONiVOX started late, and finished early in its software development.This makes SONiVOX the fourth American company to break off from licensing another company’s program to create their own. Others making this move include EastWest with their PLAY software instrument and Spectrasonics....

My guess is that the book SONiVOX read was called, My Bottom Line. It’s a quarterly masterpiece generated by your CPA firm containing all kinds of financial stats and numbers, and with it, the continued disappointment, emotionally and financially, of not seeing Tascam get to market with a Mac version of GVI so that SONiVOX could release dual platform products, just like the other guys in the neighborhood."

Like it or not, and as harsh as it is to write, Tascam didn’t finish the job. It doesn’t matter why they didn’t finish. It doesn’t matter who was responsible in the programming department for not finishing. It only matters that they didn’t finish."

Yeee---ouch!

So, here are ALL of my questions in a nutshelll:

"...What message does this send to smaller sample developers who, not able to afford Native Instruments fees for a Kontakt player, or Steinberg pricing for the HALion player, looked to TASCAM as a viable solution to get their own visionary ideas into the marketplace with a dual platform program?...."

Wow.

Wanna read more?

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=1720

Frodo wrote:"...What message does this send to smaller sample developers who, not able to afford Native Instruments fees for a Kontakt player, or Steinberg pricing for the HALion player, looked to TASCAM as a viable solution to get their own visionary ideas into the marketplace with a dual platform program?...."

Well, there's always the open Kontakt platform. Devs don't have to license the copy-protected player if they are willing to forgo locking the content. I recently bought a couple of smallish libraries from developers who did just that.

blue wrote:...if they are willing to forgo locking the content.

Yeah. That's a huge "if", though. I'm not sure about the likelihood that this exception will become the new rule, given all that has transpired.

What follows doesn't address the licensing issue, but they do represent some of my favorite quotes from the Film Mag article. Their implications could stand for a larger model for a whole lot of companies:

...don’t venture out into areas of business beyond your expertise. And that’s exactly what TASCAM did. TASCAM is a hardware company. You build a box, ship the box, sell out of the box, then create a new box.

Software doesn’t work that way. Software is like a human being. It grows and develops and takes on a personality all of its own. Software doesn’t really have a new box. It has updates that mark the product’s growth and development. At version 1.0, it’s a toddler looking for its sea legs. By 1.5 it’s steady and walking. And by v2.0, it’s racing around the kitchen. We grow with it. But we also teach it and give it direction through our feedback and comments and praises and critiques.

So it’s a joint venture all around between the OEM, the developer and the customer. If the OEM and developers are open with their communication and receptive to comments, a strong bond of trust builds.
And when that happens, the product grows in wisdom, strength and profitability.

And this one--

Yet, here’s the other but. You can’t build trust by shutting down your support forums because, as a former Tascam employee said to me, it was discouraging the Tascam employees. And you can’t build trust by being turtle-like and withdrawing into your shell and putting out the, “No speaka da English” sign.

If customer comments over quality control were discouraging the Tascam employees, did anyone over there ever stop to think how the customers must have been feeling, who, after investing in the software, also invested in computers and audio and MIDI hardware to get the thing working?

Man-- there is also a laundry list of common customer complaints on this article that sound WAY too familiar. This was really good for me to read just for the comfort factor alone!

Frodo wrote:

blue wrote:...if they are willing to forgo locking the content.

Yeah. That's a huge "if", though. I'm not sure about the likelihood that this exception will become the new rule, given all that has transpired.

Yea, it is a pretty big if. What I don't understand about the quote in bold is how Tascam, an open format, was any more viable as a solution to smaller developers than an open Kontakt.

Frodo wrote:The Gibson Effect-- hmm. Very interesting. If hardware is not hitting quite the mark while at the same time providing revenues for a more immediate effect, then it follows that the focus on the real purpose of software would go blurry.

I've also been thinking about the long wrestle for format dominance. I think it was here on U-nation quite a few years ago in its first incarnation that we prognosticated that such formats would coexist without much conflict. That's where the chat ended, but I still wondered as more questions were being asked about sample libraries in MAS format were increasingly difficult to find.

I think the reason soft VI's have become so popular are issues related to space in home studios and ease-of-integration, at least in the short term. The longer term issues are just starting to really show up: lack of format standards, closed systems, difficulty in resurrecting old projects, bugs, host incompatibilities, etc.

Hardware might possibly make a comeback if it specifically addressed some of these things, most importantly ease of integration.

Frodo wrote:Then, take the assumed best of all possible scenarios: The PC platform with an unequivocal market share with Giga enjoying a happy championship by people from Jan Hammer all the way down the ladder of artistic prominence among advocates of electronic music tracking. One summer morning in 2008 it's suddenly "ta-ta Giga".

Similar to Opcode, no? Well maybe, maybe not, but maybe part of the Giga problems stem from the fact that they took their sweet time getting anything over to the Mac, which owns a disproportionate share of the audio market. In the meantime, Kontakt moved in and sucked up the market. Then to add to the damage, was the fools gold mad rush to soft romplers. End result, a flat market for Giga on the PC side, with little chance of seriously penetrating the Mac market, coupled with the fact that the corporate DNA at Tascam might have no clue how the software marketplace works.

Frodo wrote:How has the paradigm shifted and to where, exactly, has it shifted? Hardware samplers haven't made a comeback. It's clearly computers, but this still seem to be more hardware related. What is it that has moved in to displace Giga?

And if it's not Giga itself, then is it sample formats in general? If that's the case, what does that mean for other more "open" formats which might be run in a universal sampler? If the diversity of formats is narrowing, does that bring the universal sampler much closer to the status of a rompler?

I think that eventually these systems are going to have to open back up. It might take months, it might take years. I dunno, but the push in information technology in general is towards open interoperable systems, and this is because businesses are losing patience spending enormous sums of money on closed proprietary systems. I see no reason why the audio industry should be immune to the same trends.

Folks-- this thread is getting interestinger and interestinger! Thanks already for the great thoughts!

blue wrote: Yea, it is a pretty big if. What I don't understand about the quote in bold is how Tascam, an open format, was any more viable as a solution to smaller developers than an open Kontakt.

Dunno-- maybe because GIGA was older and already had a strong user base established before Kontakt entered the picture. The thing about Kontakt is that it sort of broke part of Tascam's cycle of madness with audio formats sort of in the way AU centralized things for the Mac. Not sure... The idea of a universal sampler was a great idea and very timely, no doubt.

The question remains as to why Tascam dragged its feet and ignored its demographic. Arrogance? As an extension-- the article suggested that Tascam overreached a bit by not letting the software guys do their thing. Some of this reminds me of the recent Sony marketing strategy with the PS3 which suffered during the whole BluRay/HDDVD wars. That's a whole other story, but so many at Sony lost their jobs before BluRay actually won out, and the PS3 never did quite catch XBOX.

Hmm-- Tascam. Sony. Sounds like there's been a general shift in strategy from the East in general. Wonder what's up?

billf wrote:I think the reason soft VI's have become so popular are issues related to space in home studios and ease-of-integration, at least in the short term. The longer term issues are just starting to really show up: lack of format standards, closed systems, difficulty in resurrecting old projects, bugs, host incompatibilities, etc.

Hardware might possibly make a comeback if it specifically addressed some of these things, most importantly ease of integration.

Now, there's a thought. If hardware does make a comeback, it's got some things to live up to. Yamaha came out with a new sampler to little fanfare a couple of years ago. Can't remember the name, but it wasn't the A5000. Anyway, it didn't make any great shakes in the RAM department, though better than its predecessors. Also, hardware samplers are going to have to content with things like FW and/or ethernet options, a digital audio output standard (or provide a host of options), more-than-decent DAs for analog outs, and hi-res sample and bit rates.

The Muse Receptor, if it can be used as a modern day hardware example, was painfully pricey with orchestral bundles going for 4 x $2500. What I don't get is that the most expensive add-ons "back in the day" were hard drives and RAM. Those prices have come way down and the Receptor has remained comparatively expensive where a desktop system is way more flexible for a variety of uses...

And the Receptors still top out at 2GB. Making the next phase of hardware might also take some steps to address specifics of 64-bit addressing more successfully where a host of other elements are not at play.

But, true-- space, fans, noise, extra cables-- ay-yi-yi. Pros and cons abound.

billf wrote:but maybe part of the Giga problems stem from the fact that they took their sweet time getting anything over to the Mac, which owns a disproportionate share of the audio market. In the meantime, Kontakt moved in and sucked up the market. Then to add to the damage, was the fools gold mad rush to soft romplers. End result, a flat market for Giga on the PC side, with little chance of seriously penetrating the Mac market, coupled with the fact that the corporate DNA at Tascam might have no clue how the software marketplace works.

I think you're right-- funny, I'd said almost the same thing while answering blue's post!!

Sounds like Tascam took a few too many things for granted and found the moss gathering at their feet a day late.

billf wrote:I think that eventually these systems are going to have to open back up. It might take months, it might take years. I dunno, but the push in information technology in general is towards open interoperable systems, and this is because businesses are losing patience spending enormous sums of money on closed proprietary systems. I see no reason why the audio industry should be immune to the same trends.

Problem is that someone always wants their format to rule. At the rate things are going, AT&T will make it to the universal sampling market before the companies expected to do so ever get there.

This is probably semi-OT, but I was also reading today about some e-mail memo that went out to Microsoft employees talking about them needing to take Apple's example of having a better grip on the end-user experience, which MS feels is at the core (no pun intended) of Apple's survival. Funny that MS would even be concerned with them reporting that they outsell Macs by at least 30 to 1. But I guess it's better to talk about it while you're ahead than to follow Tascam's example.

Frodo wrote:

blue wrote:Yea, it is a pretty big if. What I don't understand about the quote in bold is how Tascam, an open format, was any more viable as a solution to smaller developers than an open Kontakt.

Dunno-- maybe because GIGA was older and already had a strong user base established before Kontakt entered the picture.

It seems pretty clear that the rise of the rompler played a big role in Giga's demise. There were other factors -remember how long it took for version 3 to come out?- but that one seems the most potentially devastating. If you hadn't already invested in a Giga system, there was really no need to look any further than Kontakt for libraries that didn't already have a player built in. If you're a developer, and you can't afford to license an engine, why program your library for a format whose user base is shrinking?

blue wrote: It seems pretty clear that the rise of the rompler played a big role in Giga's demise. There were other factors -remember how long it took for version 3 to come out?- but that one seems the most potentially devastating. If you hadn't already invested in a Giga system, there was really no need to look any further than Kontakt for libraries that didn't already have a player built in. If you're a developer, and you can't afford to license an engine, why program your library for a format whose user base is shrinking?

No doubt the rompler played a role. I'm also getting the sense that Tascam sort of asked for it in a way by taking their time with development of GVI and GS3. That alone may have left the door wide open for users to look elsewhere for solutions just to continue working. Such long delays take no regard for customer deadlines, and that translates into putting food on the table. I can recall waiting for M5v2 and ended up getting Kontakt just because there was little to go on with respect to the future MachFive support other than "it's coming". In the meantime, deadlines came and went and something had to be done.

But something else came to mind a while ago. I've been rather astonished at the pricing for EWQLSO. With the Kontakt engine, that thing was about $3k+. The PLAY version is about 1/3 that price. One would *think* pulling together a symphony orchestra and renting a hall and the gear and the engineers to just do the sampling would be a formidable expense. But I now wonder just what role the NI engine played in the cost of maintaining this library for 30,000 users. The other thing I noticed was that Ocean Way Drums uses the NI engine and the HD version pushes the $2k range. Something like BFD is about $500 list plus add-ons.

Well, I suppose I've been trying to think through what all of this means for all the stuff I have and will need to have for a while. This changes a whole lot of things, including when one chooses to sell a computer rather than to keep it. With Snow Leopard coming next year, there are as many reasons to keep my G5 as there might be to get rid of it. Lots to think about...