DP6 : Hobbit Meets With MOTU

[Frodo]

If I dont make it mysellf..I know the guys at that store, but if I dont make it, please beg them for me..beg them..

One thing:

The ability to click on any effect parameter in a plug in, such as to apple control click, and have that parameter come up in the SE editor....

It is INSANE to scroll through 300 parameters looking for the gain on the 5th plug in down, 6th channel of the plug...

In pro tool,s if you apple control click any knob in a plug in, THAT exact parameter comes up for editing..this is such a no brainer..
BEg BEG BEG

Yes-- I'll bundle this in with Mike_O's similar question about controllers. Being able to customize the available controller layers in the SE would facilitate and accelerate editing greatly.

[toodamnhip]

If I dont make it mysellf..I know the guys at that store, but if I dont make it, please beg them for me..beg them..

One thing:

The ability to click on any effect parameter in a plug in, such as to apple control click, and have that parameter come up in the SE editor....

It is INSANE to scroll through 300 parameters looking for the gain on the 5th plug in down, 6th channel of the plug...

In pro tool,s if you apple control click any knob in a plug in, THAT exact parameter comes up for editing..this is such a no brainer..
BEg BEG BEG

Yes-- I'll bundle this in with Mike_O's similar question about controllers. Being able to customize the available controller layers in the SE would facilitate and accelerate editing greatly.

I recall the day my technician at the time showed me that command in PT..it completely changed how I mixed..
I could get to anything and pencil in data in a flash..you have no idea..this is earth shattering stuff..you'll see in 10-12 yrs when MOTU finally wakes up and puts this no brainer into it;s brain

[Shooshie]

BTW- could someone who has DP6 check on the Preamp noise?

I was just playing with PreAmp yesterday, in its expanded format, and while it does create a lot of noise, that's what it's supposed to do. When I altered the settings and dialed down the overdriven tube/digital options, it came back down to its simple compressor/EQ/limiter self. Used very sparingly, some of its tube overdrive can be interesting.

So... is there some other noise that I'm missing? or is it just the fuzz-box built into it?

Shooshie

[Frodo]

So... is there some other noise that I'm missing? or is it just the fuzz-box built into it?

Shooshie

That's what I was wondering, too. There's always some noise with analog-ish emus... but as long as the noise is desired and controllable...

hmm

[grimepoch]

Frodo, seriously thanks for asking all these questions. There are some great ones. I hope you have a representative that is in the know. I'm almost tempted to drive to Mass just to talk to them!

I know you are being careful with your GUI questions, my only desire would be to know if they are considering user definable options to the GUI relative to color. It's a much more vague question, but doesn't hit on any specifics.

I do have to say though, I disagree with your statement that Leopard is not ready for 64-bit. While tiger only allowed applications without GUIs to run 64-bit, Leopard has full 64-bit support and there are a few applications that are fully 64-bit, like Xcode, Chess (haha) and AU Lab to name a few.

The problem is more of a chicken and egg scenario. Apple has stated that they are not converting anymore of the Carbon libraries than they have already done, and depricated the rest. A LOT of programs use carbon in them, and if they want to go true 64-bit, they are going to have to pull out and replace everything to the cocoa equivalent.

What makes this worse is that when DP is 64-bit, you cannot use ANY plugins that are compiled with the 32-bit architecture. ALL your plugins will have to be updated by the developers. This is A LOT of work. The lists I frequent with other developers, people have started converting their plugins to be both 32-bit and 64-bit. To really push this, someone needs to convert a big DAW over to it, so neither side has jumped the gun yet.

I've read all the things coming in Snow Leopard, and I do not see anything specific to 64-bit that we don't have. What I do see is a lot more intelligent handling of CPU usage and a reduction in cache invalidation. Plus, other intelligent handling of threads, which will be most welcome!

[Shooshie]

Frodo, I have a question for MOTU, but don't feel compelled to ask if the circumstance doesn't feel right. One of the biggest advances they could make in the user interface would be to make it 100% Spaces Aware. If it would save windows in the spaces to which they've been assigned, and not have windows reverting back to the main space, and allow windows to actually OPEN to the last space they were assigned, then DP would instantly gain the advantage of having nearly unlimited monitor-screen space in which to work. Even with the trouble it causes -- and DP6 is worse than was DP5.13 -- I still use Spaces as a productivity enhancer. Sometimes I wonder if its worth it. I'll open a plugin from the mixing board (Space 2) and it will open in the primary space (Space 4) I'll visit my VIs in Space 3, and the Consolidated Window will inexplicably follow, leaving behind its shell in Space 4, forcing me to go back to Space 3 to get it and drag it home. I'll click on a track in the track selector of my MIDI Edit Window (full-screen in Space 1), and it will jump back to Space 4, then return to Space 1, leaving me wondering what just happened.

So, if those kinds of anomalies could be corrected, DP would be wonderful in Spaces, and one could literally leave open every single window in the app, if they wanted to. I've wondered if this might slow down the graphics card? So far it doesn't seem to. Not sure about that, though. Maybe Apple only applies CPU energies toward spaces that are currently visible. I do not know.

Anyway, that would be a nice thing to have.

Another thing would be to give us back some of those buttons we'd grown to depend on over the years: the ones in the title bar of windows, etc. There is some disconnect between the help files and what is really there, in that regard.

Also, I'm having trouble in plugin automation. It's been years since I've needed to automate a plugin, so I may be missing something, but I can't make it happen. I setup the plugin automation to include the parameters I' trying to automate. I even can draw in the automation, but the line remains dotted, never solid. And... it never works. I've tried it in Waves plugins and in Altiverb. Nothing. I'm going to ask around and read the manual and see if I'm missing something, but I fear there may be something wrong.

Honestly, I don't see your being able to ask all these questions to that poor rep, and I don't see you getting any responses other than what we typically hear on the phone: "Haven't heard of THAT before!"

Good luck, and thanks for asking for input.

Shooshie

[tonwurm]

In DP5, you can go to the Create Continuous Data dialog from the Region Menu. If you have VIs and/or plugins loaded, there is a sticky menu on the middle right of that window that *should* show your active VIs in a folder. Inside each folder you'll find the available controller parameters for that VI or plugin.

So far I know (I tested it, but perhaps there´s another way), this works only with audio- and instrument-tracks and in this tracks instanciated plugs, but not with a MIDI-track controlling a virtual instrument in the v-rack.

It would be perfect, if one can select the desired parameter in the insert-slot of every track, even if it´s a MIDI-track, that controls something in the v-rack.

[Frodo]

One of the biggest advances they could make in the user interface would be to make it 100% Spaces Aware. If it would save windows in the spaces to which they've been assigned, and not have windows reverting back to the main space, and allow windows to actually OPEN to the last space they were assigned.

Yes, and DP is not the only app I've seen not quite ready for Spaces. The idea for Spaces is great, but at present there are enough things that I use that are not as cooperative as they could be. For now, for me, Spaces remains one of those 10.5 bells and whistles that I've had to stop using until a later time. I will mention it...

Another thing would be to give us back some of those buttons we'd grown to depend on over the years: the ones in the title bar of windows, etc. There is some disconnect between the help files and what is really there, in that regard.

Yes, this has been mentioned and appears to be among the "oops" features

Also, I'm having trouble in plugin automation. It's been years since I've needed to automate a plugin, so I may be missing something, but I can't make it happen. I setup the plugin automation to include the parameters I' trying to automate. I even can draw in the automation, but the line remains dotted, never solid. And... it never works. I've tried it in Waves plugins and in Altiverb. Nothing. I'm going to ask around and read the manual and see if I'm missing something, but I fear there may be something wrong.

Plugin automation is among the most commonly asked questions-- and these days with VIs and plugins having taken over Gotham City, PA must become more critically essential as a central function in DP rather than a nice supplementary concept with potential.

Honestly, I don't see your being able to ask all these questions to that poor rep, and I don't see you getting any responses other than what we typically hear on the phone: "Haven't heard of THAT before!"

Good luck, and thanks for asking for input.

Oh, I'll ask. Don't worry. There's no telling what answers I'll get. But you must plant the seed whether you know it will grow or not. Yes?

I almost hesitate to mention this, but while I hope there *will* be answers I certainly don't expect one person-- even one from MOTU-- to have all the answers on the tip of their tongue. I do believe that it will be hard to ignore any lack of reception to such questions. If any of the issues to be presented strikes the rep as "news", I would hope the rep will show as much genuine interest in his replies to match the genuine constructive curiosity that will be offered in advance of said replies--- if you take my meaning.

If nothing else, just assembling these questions has already painted a much soberer and saner picture of where things are.

So far I know (I tested it, but perhaps there´s another way), this works only with audio- and instrument-tracks and in this tracks instanciated plugs, but not with a MIDI-track controlling a virtual instrument in the v-rack.

It would be perfect, if one can select the desired parameter in the insert-slot of every track, even if it´s a MIDI-track, that controls something in the v-rack.

Indeed, this is another feature that really ought to work. I find it fascinating that everyone who has mentioned something about Plugin Automation has managed to raise some unique aspect of it amidst otherwise nearly identical questions. This could mean that the solution for all of these matters may rest in some singular fix.

++++++

BTW-- I'll be away for most of the day, but will be checking in at some point over the next 24 hours to continue taking notes.

[monkey man]

Any word on the volume burst issue?
IOW, did MOTU manage to fix the problem?
I feel this one's important 'cause the last I heard it was struggling to reproduce the symptoms.

Hi Monkey Man,
You may want to have a look at my post in the "is it all bad news with Digital Performer????" thread (last post on the first page).

How sad. Thank you for sharing that Martin.

You know, so far all my work in DP has been MIDI, so your report is not encouraging to say the least.

[pcm]

If I dont make it mysellf..I know the guys at that store, but if I dont make it, please beg them for me..beg them..

One thing:

The ability to click on any effect parameter in a plug in, such as to apple control click, and have that parameter come up in the SE editor....

It is INSANE to scroll through 300 parameters looking for the gain on the 5th plug in down, 6th channel of the plug...

In pro tools, if you apple control click any knob in a plug in, THAT exact parameter comes up for editing..this is such a no brainer..
BEg BEG BEG

Yes-- I'll bundle this in with Mike_O's similar question about controllers. Being able to customize the available controller layers in the SE would facilitate and accelerate editing greatly.

I recall the day my technician at the time showed me that command in PT..it completely changed how I mixed..
I could get to anything and pencil in data in a flash..you have no idea..this is earth shattering stuff..you'll see in 10-12 yrs when MOTU finally wakes up and puts this no brainer into it;s brain

They should spend a day with an engineer who knows both systems, and look at stuff like this. Digi is years (literally) ahead of motu in stuff like this. Real-world, common-sense engineering stuff. Seriously.

Here's another example: Let's say you have a headphone system for the musicians, and it's being fed by sends on DP's mixer. Just like it's been done on real consoles for decades. Now, you want to copy YOUR mix to the sends (as a starting point), rather than have to tweak every single knob by hand. In PT, you press CMD-OPT-H, and you get a dialog box that allows you to pick WHICH send you want to copy your mix to, along with a few other useful parameters that you can optionally click on. Bang!, it's done. Make ALL those sends pre-fader? One click.

Or, someone delivers to you a session for you to mix, but it has NO sends set up at all. You need to set up four sends on 40 channels. In DP, that's 160 clicks, in PT, it's 4.

Okay, one more. You've been given a full CD to mix, and you're just gotten together a pretty good mix of the first song. You've spent quite a bit of time setting up eqs, compressors, sends to fx, etc. Now you are going to move on to the second song. In PT, you can import any or all aspects of the first mix you worked on (plugins, plugin settings, audio routing, aux's, panning and level settings, etc., all selectable track-by-track). In DP, you will have to re-invent the wheel. The whole car, actually. Yes, you can use clippings and such, but it's way more labor intensive, and still far from complete.

Oh alright, one more. Your doing a lot of editing on a track, which involves time-stretching and time-compression. Motu's algorithms are pretty good, but not really good enough to be doing stuff like a grand piano or (fill in the blank). BUT, you happen to own Wave's Soundshifter, or maybe Pitch-n-Time, or maybe Soundtoys Speed. You know, expensive, state of the art time compression-expansion tools. In PT, you can set a preference that will have PT use a third-party tool for ALL internal time compression-expansion editing, thereby allowing you to plays serious games in places where DP's tool will fall to pieces.

I could go on like this for hours. Real enhancements like these would be more worth an upgrade fee than a GUI makeover, in my opinion.

[grimepoch]

I think we need to petition apple to fix spaces as well. I think spaces is broke.

When I switch back and forth between two spaces, it always changes what app is up front. I have like Final Cut at front on one then switch to another and back and then finder is up front. VERY annoying and needs to get fixed.

Again, I say this particular problem is with Apples code not keeping track of the display order.

[Shooshie]

I think you're probably right, Grim. Can't expect MOTU to hit a moving target, can we?

Boy, I hope someday we get a spaces-aware version. That is one of the greatest features I've ever seen on any computer. Reminds me of Switcher, by Andy Hertzfeld from the old days. That app made a supercomputer out of my old original 128K Mac, which I'd souped up to 2 MB RAM. I've wished for a similar feature ever since. Imagine -- unlimited monitors in one little space!

Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

Frodo, I have a question for MOTU, but don't feel compelled to ask if the circumstance doesn't feel right. One of the biggest advances they could make in the user interface would be to make it 100% Spaces Aware. If it would save windows in the spaces to which they've been assigned, and not have windows reverting back to the main space, and allow windows to actually OPEN to the last space they were assigned, then DP would instantly gain the advantage of having nearly unlimited monitor-screen space in which to work. Even with the trouble it causes -- and DP6 is worse than was DP5.13 -- I still use Spaces as a productivity enhancer. Sometimes I wonder if its worth it. I'll open a plugin from the mixing board (Space 2) and it will open in the primary space (Space 4) I'll visit my VIs in Space 3, and the Consolidated Window will inexplicably follow, leaving behind its shell in Space 4, forcing me to go back to Space 3 to get it and drag it home. I'll click on a track in the track selector of my MIDI Edit Window (full-screen in Space 1), and it will jump back to Space 4, then return to Space 1, leaving me wondering what just happened.

So, if those kinds of anomalies could be corrected, DP would be wonderful in Spaces, and one could literally leave open every single window in the app, if they wanted to. I've wondered if this might slow down the graphics card? So far it doesn't seem to. Not sure about that, though. Maybe Apple only applies CPU energies toward spaces that are currently visible. I do not know.

Anyway, that would be a nice thing to have.

Another thing would be to give us back some of those buttons we'd grown to depend on over the years: the ones in the title bar of windows, etc. There is some disconnect between the help files and what is really there, in that regard.

Also, I'm having trouble in plugin automation. It's been years since I've needed to automate a plugin, so I may be missing something, but I can't make it happen. I setup the plugin automation to include the parameters I' trying to automate. I even can draw in the automation, but the line remains dotted, never solid. And... it never works. I've tried it in Waves plugins and in Altiverb. Nothing. I'm going to ask around and read the manual and see if I'm missing something, but I fear there may be something wrong.

Honestly, I don't see your being able to ask all these questions to that poor rep, and I don't see you getting any responses other than what we typically hear on the phone: "Haven't heard of THAT before!"

Good luck, and thanks for asking for input.

Shooshie

Have you hit the automation play enable green button on the track itself? Have you checked the automation prefs in the prefs window? There is a bug in DP will sometime a bunch of parameters get put into the "all except" window of the automation prefs..make sure that too isnt happening...

[Lookinnn]

after reading through all this ..
i just want to hear 20 more suggestions from PCM .. hahaha ..
damn dude .. great observations / info ..
seriously .. post more
i know you have more great insight ..

as far as plugins working .. standards were created so that plugs that conformed to the standards would work in host that provided that plugin platform ..
therefor .. ALL AU plugs should work in ALL UA compatable hosts.

And its understandable that people with $10,000 invested in plugins would be upset when they don't work ..
the plugin architecture / standard didn't change ..
as the old saying goes .. "its a dime holding up a dollar"

It is, however, important to note that we are in a time of unusual technological changes .. its a TRIPLE STACK ..
1 OSX Software had a major change with unix underpinnings
2 Mac Hardware has changed SIGNIFICANTLY .. ?? Intel ?? who would have ever guessed .. haha
3 DAW hardware / software is in an update occurance .. will 16 bit EVER be an antiquity ? be ready .. i say yes ..

Bugs and fixs will happen .. the most important thing is to report bugs and any supporting info you might have. Some issues may lead to solutions to other issues and some may be related and one fix for several problems can be written into the software much more efficiently / easily ..
a bug reports and complaints share the issues .. but are worlds apart.
and Believe me .. motu welcomes bug reports for "un-welcomed bugs" haha ..
So i say .. Realize the TRIPLE STACK .. REPORT your BUGS .. be detailed.
Work from one drive .. set up / test DP6 on another drive or partition .. change drives when you got all your issues addressed ..
thats what i do ..
BTW i'm still waiting on my dp6 .. i WAS just gonna install and go for it ..
but now i'll definitely have a test drive before committing ..
thanks for everyones info and input ..
jeff

[FMiguelez]

If I dont make it mysellf..I know the guys at that store, but if I dont make it, please beg them for me..beg them..

One thing:

The ability to click on any effect parameter in a plug in, such as to apple control click, and have that parameter come up in the SE editor....

It is INSANE to scroll through 300 parameters looking for the gain on the 5th plug in down, 6th channel of the plug...

In pro tool,s if you apple control click any knob in a plug in, THAT exact parameter comes up for editing..this is such a no brainer..
BEg BEG BEG

THIS is one of the best ideas/suggestions I've heard so far, along with the spaces thing.

If they implemented what TDH mentioned, I could cut hours of fiddling with endless little menus.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

And also, ALL of PCM's suggestions are just TOO awesome. I'm drooling now...