Is DP for me?

[Aramis]

I do agree with you Larry !
It makes no sense !

Aramis

64 bit and so forth- but really, I'm sure Sonar is a wonderful program, but it would be worth anything to me to avoid having to use a PC. As far as I can tell, Mac is the way to go, it seems as if most professionals I know work on that platform, and they are looking more and more cutting edge all the time... Microsoft is looking very 20th century to me at the moment.

I mean, what are you going to do your music on, a freakin' Dell? It seems absurd.

And let's face it: one can't cling to Windows XP forever, and nobody is wanting to trust Vista... what a screw up on the part of Microsoft. And who would trust them to get it right with the next operating system? Who knows if computers will even be structured the same by then? It may be all server based, and you pick a field you want to work in (say audio), log in to that and work from there, like a pick and choose cable company of software suites that are not housed on your PC.

Or maybe by the time Microsoft has worked out the successor to Vista, we'll all have computers built into our oversized heads or something.

And I've got to say, I don't dislike Vista- I picked it out for my girlfriend's computer and I think it runs just fine, and it has some things that I would like to see in the Mac OS. But I don't think I would want to do audio on it- well, you couldn't, not this computer- but anyway, when one looks around at most people doing professional work in the fields of audio and video, it seems to be with Macintosh's. I'm sure there are many exceptions. That's my disclaimer. But still, I would want to go with what people who are making money with satisfying careers in the field I want to get into are using (I'm an audio production major at the moment).

So yeah, I was down for the debate on Logic vs. Digital Performer- I mean, those are two great programs- but Mac vs. PC? Come on.

[soundmaster]

hello guys! i'm still around here, cause you are such a friendly bunch and i don't mind conversing with you all.But nonetheless i would like to explain something.
I am computer illiterate, but i'm not stupid or ignorant. I have heard that Vista isn't perfect, and the PC platform apparently has incompatability and setup issues as opposed to the much more standardised hardware on the Mac platform.
But i had to go with the DAW that offered me the most bang for the buck and included fully useable synths and mastering plugs from the outset.
As of Sonar 7.0.2, apparently cakewalk has resolved a lot of performance and stability issues with Vista and the cakewalk forums confirmed this, in that the forums are largely void off huh! what! how! Arrrrgh! posts.
Although i wanted to go with the famed Apple platform and OS, i am aware that as long as you get a good quality PC, then Cakewalk deals with the rest(as in coding). So i deemed it safe enough to go PC and hope for the best, and thus i put my faith in the cakewalk programmers and coders of Sonar7 to take care of the details. I guesstimate that they are highly competent and dedicated to Sonar and that a hell of a lot of people are achieving great results with it.

The main reason i went with Sonar was because of the included synths; such as...
-Rapture
-PentagonI
-PSYNII
-Z3TA+
-Dropzone
-Roland groovesynth
-Dimension pro
I had a good listen to each and every one of them and they sounded fantastic, so that would save me a lot of money not having to invest in third party offerings.

Also regarding the 64bit issue. I may not understand the technical jargon but i have the common sense to understand that it will be beneficial due to comments from informed and pro users who touted the benefits of 64bit. the two main things that impressed me were the assertion that 64 bit apparently provides a less digital sounding, and more real world analog like sound, plus it is definitely reported by Cakewalk as having better processor efficiency which could only be a bonus. Regarding dynamic range and headroom, i just took those as pleasant technical side effects that couldn't hurt but will in some way keep me at the cutting edge.

Again! i much appreciated all your help, input, insights, and friendliness.

[Frodo]

Hi Soundmaster:

I admire your thoughtful efforts and offer you the best regards with the hope that your platform of choice will serve you well!

Best of luck and happy music making!

[James Steele]

For the second time in a couple posts... "What Frodo said!"

Basic point is to have fun making music... regardless of what you use to get the job done. Digital Performer isn't the best choice for everyone. It just so happens it is for me is all... hence that's why I'm here. But to each his/her own!

[Frodo]

I think Soundmaster will come to understand the differences between 32-bit and 64-bit memory addressing from 16-bit and 24-bit audio depths. For someone new to DAWs there's a lot of information and jargon to grasp and to digest, but there's nothing all that severe that it can't be learned by a little reading and hands-on experience.

As long as his heart is in the right place, his brain will follow along easily enough.

[Larry Mal]

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful and I hope I didn't come off that way- I'm aware that there is plenty to be had in the world of the PC and Sonar is in fact a great program, and I would love to look into it some day. And considering that a certain amount of time would go into learning how to make the music you (or I) was wanting to make means that having $10k worth of softsynths and a fresh of the tree Apple wouldn't necessarily make that much of a difference.

But I was concerned about Soundmaster getting the most computer for his money, my thought was that nothing at the moment competes with the 8 core Mac- or I'd be irresponsibly spending student loan money on that. But maybe that wasn't in the budget for him anyway, and an iMac certainly can be competed with in the PC world.

My main point was that (an I know I was ranting a little in my last post) was that the main focus for me would be the very best computer you could afford, since it will actually be doing all the work, no matter what DAW you end up using. Any limitations in your music making will be revealed there, so make that the main thrust of your purchasing.

So to me that would be more important than anything else: as everyone has said, you'll more or less be learning with the bundled synths in any DAW and probably want to custom tailor your sound with third party synths in the future anyway, so don't place all that heavy a stock in them... and while 64 bit internal processing is great, and I for one am very much looking forward to true 64 bit computing (hence the new Mac Pro), most of the great music you've heard was not done that way, so you have to know that it isn't necessary in any way. So don't be sucked in by the corporate jargon too much, which is a ridiculous thing to say to a computer based musician... but you gotta try to be strong.

And Mac vs. PC? Well, there's the rub. I just want you to consider, Soundmaster, that the computer you get will be the most important part of your chain, since with an underpowered one you can expect it to have problems processing the information that is represented by what your synths are playing, as well as any live stuff you are recording. Remember: a computer can only compute- it can only process numbers. It's not like analog recording which makes a copy- an analog- of what it is perceiving in the real world. A computer reduces everything down to numbers, and when you give it a ton of calculations to make, which you will be doing with any audio, then it had better be able to make those calculations fast, which is represented in Gigahertz in the processing part of the computer, how much RAM it can access, and these days the processing is distributed over multiple cores.

Listen to me: in the old days, you used to have to get your processing from the well.

But my point is to get the very best computer you can get, and let the DAW be what it needs to be, which is a manner of working (and Sonar sounds like a good one, don't get me wrong), and let the synths be something that you can grow with as your needs change, which will likely be third party. And for my money, a Mac is the best computer you can get in the upper echelons of their lines. The iMac for me is a great machine, but not quite there for anything other than hobby working with audio. This is my opinion.

Soundmaster: you'll be fine, you are obviously intelligent and passionate about what you want to do, and those two things are what money can't get for you- you're gonna make good music, I think.

[monkey man]

The main reason i went with Sonar was because of the included synths; such as...
-Rapture
-PentagonI
-PSYNII
-Z3TA+
-Dropzone
-Roland groovesynth
-Dimension pro
I had a good listen to each and every one of them and they sounded fantastic, so that would save me a lot of money not having to invest in third party offerings.

Fortunately for all of us, I've somehow misplaced my l-o-n-g response (I think the board ate it), so I'll try to sum it up succinctly:

I've said since joining this board that MOTU will lose much business by neglecting this area.
I've torturously held onto her in the hope that such improvements were just around the corner... for years.

In line with tradition, I'll ask yet again:
MOTU, when are we going to be afforded the opportunity to not feel like second-class citizens of the DAW world by the simple inclusion of a decent VI set capable of replacing a bread-and-butter outboard MIDI rig, and the addition of some other basics such as tape sat, amp/cab sims, denoising and match EQ?

[Mr. Quimper]

Considering that the total cost of all of MOTU's premium VIs is three times that of DP, I don't foresee them ever bundling them with DP unless they plan on charging $2000 for the package. After all, Mach5 by itself almost costs as much as DP! Their frequent new additions to their separate VI line is another clear indicator of this -- if they had any intentions of bundling them with DP, they would have from the start. Clearly they are making more money by selling them separately otherwise they wouldn't be doing it!

I'm sure MOTU could care less if people are using Logic or Pro Tools if they're buying $1600 worth of plug ins. Besides, there are plenty of people here who own DP AND most of their VIs, so why would they want to give something away that many people are willing to pay for?

I would bet quite a bit of money that this will just never happen. DP is clearly not their primary source of income/concern from a business standpoint and they most likely make much more money from their stand alone VIs than DP, especially since they are cross-platform in the DAW and OS sense.

[dogBoy]

Had to take a look at Sonar 7.

There are great features in this program.
Well thought out grouping and routing.
VI's that have value.
Seems like a real good choice.

Good luck Soundmaster with Sonar , looks like fun.

[Mr. Quimper]

And really, coming from the Pro Tools world, DP users really don't have anything to complain about. Paying $1300 on top of your already expensive base system just to get timecode, OMF capabilities, and a few more tracks in PT LE is something to complain about.

And they don't bundle their VIs either.

[tyronehowe]

I would bet quite a bit of money that this will just never happen. DP is clearly not their primary source of income/concern from a business standpoint and they most likely make much more money from their stand alone VIs than DP, especially since they are cross-platform in the DAW and OS sense.

I’m sure you’re right. But I have to say that pretty much the only time I ever hear about MOTU’s VIs are on this board. Are there many users of Mach 2 outside of DP users? If not, then keeping DP users happy (and attracting new DP users by bundling VIs as MonkeyMan suggests) would be a good business decision I’d have thought.

[tyronehowe]

Had to take a look at Sonar 7.

There are great features in this program.
Well thought out grouping and routing.
VI's that have value.
Seems like a real good choice.

If I was headed back to PC land for my music, then Sonar would win hands down. They really seem to listen to their users and Sonar is jam packed with goodies. And if something is missing? You can bet it’ll be in the next release.

Oh yes … and it’s never been dongle protected!

[Babz]

The biggest problem is that Vista is a nightmare. I still run XP on my PCs, but nearly everyone I know who has used Vista ended up downgrading to XP. The one friend I have who is a Vista stalwart, sticks with it, but totally hates it, constantly complaining about what he hates about it. The other thing about PCs is they just seem much harder to get stable, there are so many variables. YMMV, yes, but the roads you travel on a PC include a lot more "sketchy parts of town." (Admittedly I'm Vistaphobic.)

Sonar 7 does seem like an awesome option, but when you compare Vista to OS X, you couldn't PAY me to use Windows as my primary DAW app.

Get a cheap PC just to run the VIs and Mac to run Logic or DP. That's what I would do, if you really care about "optimal," "best of the best," "quality," all that. I wouldn't base my DAW decision on bundled VIs. You can build those up gradually by picking and choosing the best as you go along.

IMHO, FWWI, and all the usual disclaimers...

Babz

[FMiguelez]

I would bet quite a bit of money that this will just never happen. DP is clearly not their primary source of income/concern from a business standpoint and they most likely make much more money from their stand alone VIs than DP, especially since they are cross-platform in the DAW and OS sense.

I’m sure you’re right. But I have to say that pretty much the only time I ever hear about MOTU’s VIs are on this board. Are there many users of Mach 2 outside of DP users?

Actually, MOTU spends a good deal of money on printed publicity. They announce their products on every major music magazine, either, in the back cover, or proudly full pages inside them (EM, SOS, VI, etc.)

But I agree that it would be good for some people if DP was given a very good VI or something with bread and butter sounds. Something good.

[Mr. Quimper]

Are there many users of Mach 2 outside of DP users?

Well someone's buying it.

http://www.sweetwater.com/c848--Virtual ... __Samplers

It's selling better than Structure in any case.

And for what it's worth, Electric Keys seems to be doing well also:

http://www.sweetwater.com/c716--Virtual ... nd__Organs

Coming just after Reason, Komplete 5 and Ivory in popularity? Not bad.

And their Ethnic instrument is really only one of two major choices to be had these days, it and Quantum Leap RA, so overall, I'm sure they're doing quite well on the VI front. Maybe Brad can confirm?