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Frodo wrote:One technique I enjoy from time to time is an elided rhyme. Take the end of a verse and the beginning of a chorus-- as an example:
... with the setting sun
... I'm betting
That one of these days...
Hey Frodo, that's actually a really good rhyme. Bravo.
By the way, I completely agree that one of the challenges of writing a good lyric is finding a way to say something that also fits the scansion and rhyme scheme and hopefully has perfect rhymes. In fact I think that one of the great aspects of the English language is that there are so many synonyms and different ways of saying the same thing that surely you can do it and rhyme and scan properly. And it will probably enhance the emotional impact as well.
One more thing: are the words of a song "a lyric" or "the lyrics". The former is the older term and probably "correct" but it seems nobody says that these days.
Last edited by kinnylandrum on Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
philbrown wrote:... I guess my question would be- would you sacrifice the emotional connection the song has with the listener in order to acheive perfect rhymes, if given that choice?
I agree with the assertions that a perfect rhyme is more preferable to an off rhyme...
..but to contribute to the answer at issue: no, sacrificing emotional content is wholly unacceptable. That's the whole point of a good lyric, imho. But this can also serve as strong motivation to re-examine other options of finding other ways to word out weaker lyrics with stronger ones that might have an emotional impact equal to or exceeding what was originally conceived.
One technique I enjoy from time to time is an elided rhyme. Take the end of a verse and the beginning of a chorus-- as an example:
... with the setting sun
... I'm betting
That one of these days...
(please forgive the re-application of the McGraw hook-- this is just an off-the-cuff example for the sake of discussion...)
With all due respect to context, the elision sort of breaks of the predictability of the original:
... as he walked way
... I heard him say
One of these days...
An elision displaces the rhyming problem of ending the verse in perfect rhyme where the pay off can be slightly delayed until the chorus begins. Sometimes it can create a stronger link between verse and chorus-- or one verse to another-- or a chorus and bridge-- or whatever two sections may be at issue. It could also be used internally within a verse or chorus or bridge.
Hope I'm making sense.
Awesome, thanks very much for that one. I love that concept! Is this "interior rhyme" but with the distinction being in the crossing over from section to section?. Very useful tool as a writer. Never heard that explicitly. I'm gonna re-read that one several times to let it soak in. More examples maybe?
Wasn't there a Mr. Mister song about this Elision thing?
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kinnylandrum wrote:In fact I think that one of the great aspects the English language is that there are so many synonyms and different ways of saying the same thing that surely you can do it and rhyme and scan properly.
philbrown wrote:
You're kidding, right??
I thought those were excellent examples FWIW.
Seriously, why the nervousness, especially here? Talk to us.
Well, dunno. Let's see: sometimes I wonder how well or poorly I've explained myself, and when talking about something that can be at once visceral and B&W as writing lyrics it's easy for me to miss an important point. In addition, when doing this on the fly in a thread, coming up with worthy examples or illustrations don't always get the point across, either.
But, I was relieved that you and kinny enjoyed the example as much as you did.
By the way, I was looking for an example where the off rhyme was used extensively on a song that I actually liked a lot. I found this one song by Earth, Wind & Fire called "Miracles". It breaks all the rules, but I think the sentiment is so tender and so linear that it somehow worked for me.
(verse)
Let's put the day aside
Let peaceful thoughts arise
May your dreams be sweet tonight
With kisses on your cheek
And wings upon your feet
Chase the moon across the sky
Close your eyes
(bridge?)
Say goodnight
To the sky
And the fun
Day is done
Say goodnight
Sail away
Little one
I know
Heaven can feel you're not far away
Tomorrow brings another day
(verse'/transition)
One more thing to say
Before you dream away
Let it be reality
For all not just for some
(chorus/refrain)
Miracles can show the world
A story filled with light
All the world is waiting for a miracle
That's visible
But you can see
It all through children's eyes
Yes-- it's all over the place, but it's a nice ballad and is worth hearing at least once. I'll grant that it wasn't one of their best known tunes, but it was a nice tune.
Nothing on youtube, but his link has it--- kind of slow loading, though.
My wife and I were big EWF fire fans back when. Good music to... well we enjoyed it.
Frodo, is this an example of off-rhyme or Elision or both? I'm seeing both here if I'm understanding Elision correctly. What's the term here for non-perfect rhymes? Off? Imperfect? Near-rhyme? Not sure...
I ran across I Am The Walrus. Lots of internal rhyming and near-rhyming there as well as assonance. Yes, assonance. I know I want more assonance. In my songs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assonance
Kinny - I hunted through a bunch of my old songs and haven't found a perfect rhyming whole song yet! Thought I found one, but then blew it toward the end of the song. I guess I'm a product of my times and even though aware of those rules have not made that much effort to follow them but still thought I had done better in this dept. Oh well.
I've got a another lyric post ready but I'll hold off a bit.
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Ah, I Am The Walrus. One of my favorite examples of not really rhyming or only irregularly rhyming. I have used it more than once in songwriting classes I have taught. Also an example of Lewis Carroll type nonsense lyrics and a brilliant one. Now I'll have to add assonance to the list as well. One of my favorite songs.
By the way Jimmy Webb, one of my favorite songwriters in the world, wrote a pretty good book about songwriting called Tunesmith. Some of it I don't agree with, and there are a few mistakes (some accidentals that don't match chord names, etc.). But all in all a pretty good book. Have you ever heard his relatively recent song "Paul Gaughin in the South Seas"? Great song.
He maintains that rhyming is essential to songwriting and lists some of the few great examples with no rhymes ("Moonlight In Vermont", etc.). Perhaps you wouldn't be surprised, but with kids just starting to write, especially those who consider themselves "serious" songwriters, the first question they ask is do I have to rhyme? And I say yes and they say, Why? And I just want to smack them and say, because I said so, but really I think the best reason is because lyrics have to sound like music, and rhyming is one way to do it. But assonance is certainly another.
Semolina pilchard climbing up the Eiffel Tower. By the way, you know why Come Together is such a great lyric? Not because of the nonsense lines, but because every so often a line is NOT nonsense. "One and one and one is three." "He got feet down below his knees." And so it makes you go back and look at ALL the lines to find meaning. I'm sure it was subconscious, but still brilliant.
philbrown wrote:My wife and I were big EWF fire fans back when. Good music to... well we enjoyed it.
Frodo, is this an example of off-rhyme or Elision or both? I'm seeing both here if I'm understanding Elision correctly. What's the term here for non-perfect rhymes? Off? Imperfect? Near-rhyme? Not sure...
I'm not sure of the official term myself, but I've used "off-rhyme" as a term for cheek/feet parings before.
At least in the lyrics I posted, I'd say that there are no "genuine" elisions where the main rhyme that completes on sentence appears at the beginning of another. It's basic last-word off-rhyming. (How's that for another made up term? LOL)
philbrown wrote:
I ran across I Am The Walrus. Lots of internal rhyming and near-rhyming there as well as assonance. Yes, assonance. I know I want more assonance. In my songs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assonance
Great tune!
... expert texpert choking smokers
don't you think the joker laughs at you
I'm a fan for non-rhyming lyrics, or put another way, I'm not too happy setting poetry to music unless that is the specific intent. Shakespeare is another exception.
But I think music has its own built in patterns which provide the sense of rhyme. Sondheim is a great example. BTW, I am speaking of theater and "art" music. I don't write pop stuff.
A friend of mine wrote a song about street people. I often tease him about his worst rhyme ever:
For some soup and a sandwich
he'll speak the lord's language.
But you know, it's a great song and that line didn't hurt it any. In fact, in context it's quite powerful. I can be quite flexible on the end rhyme thing if the lyrics are otherwise exceptional.
kinnylandrum wrote:Actually, in the words of John Lennon, "That is I think I disagree." In many ways I think lyrics often work best when they work AGAINST the music. It's very common in rock and roll to have dark lyrics with a happy pop tune.
In a kind of perverted way perhaps that IS telling the same story. That is I think we agree. "Let me take you down..."
Phil
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Frodo wrote:
(Hey-- we're sure getting our "Phil" around here!! The more the merrier. )
LOL
Yeah even I'm confused and I'm pretty sure I know which one I am.
Phil O -Your friend's song example was a good one. We just all have different tolerances for 'how far off is too much' in rhyme, probably dependent on our influences and maybe education I would guess. My theory would be that as the story or emotional side gets the listener's attention more and more they are in "right-brain mode" and less critically listening for rhyme and form. If you were singing some more meaningless or nonsensical words the same listener might be more critical of the form being less engaged emotionally. Maybe.
I just flashed on something - African music. I love a lot of it especially Soukous. I love their free form melodies and the fact I don't understand the words is fine and possibly a plus. One fave is "Sala Keba" by Papa Wemba (obscure - sorry), but when I actually read a translation it was pretty mundane. I liked what I thought he was singing about more than what he was really singing about. Not sure what my point is but I would love to chop up English and sing it in that herky-jerky style but don't have a clue, and it might not even be possible due to "phoneme differences". Those guys can add 14 extra syllables into one line and make it all work somehow. I see no parallels in popular English singing music and see it as much more rigid. But if I spoke their language I might be criticizing them for bad form!
MLC - do you have an example of a non-rhyming lyric you like? I can't think of any other than a couple of spoken word ones, and even they rhymed to a degree.
Kinny- I couldn't find that Jimmy Webb tune, but I know he's written some great ones.
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I've finally got time to read this thread and listen to the examples and you guys are gonna cut me off at 4 pages?!? Don't stop now, this is possibly the most interesting thread I've read (how's that for an interior rhyme?) on the U-Board. Keep it up, keep it up....
Stephen
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philbrown wrote:I just flashed on something - African music. I love a lot of it especially Soukous. I love their free form melodies and the fact I don't understand the words is fine and possibly a plus. One fave is "Sala Keba" by Papa Wemba (obscure - sorry), but when I actually read a translation it was pretty mundane. I liked what I thought he was singing about more than what he was really singing about. Not sure what my point is but I would love to chop up English and sing it in that herky-jerky style but don't have a clue, and it might not even be possible due to "phoneme differences". Those guys can add 14 extra syllables into one line and make it all work somehow. I see no parallels in popular English singing music and see it as much more rigid. But if I spoke their language I might be criticizing them for bad form!
Foreign languages certainly do change the end rhyme thing, especially those languages that use endings heavily. If you just use the endings, you could make just about anything rhyme. They tend to do multiple syllable rhymes, which makes sense.
Phil
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hee-hee-hee 
)
Those guys can add 14 extra syllables into one line and make it all work somehow. I see no parallels in popular English singing music and see it as much more rigid. But if I spoke their language I might be criticizing them for bad form!