MOTUnation.com

Electric Keys will NOT be included with DP6.

Just to clarify this again.

So...new instruments, new interface,..yada yada...but did they fix the volume surge in DP6?

what a volume surge are you talking about? i am just asking cuz i have never seen a problem like that in DP...

i am sure that if the MOTU R&D guys knew about it then it will be fixed in DP6.

marcuswitt wrote: i am sure that if the MOTU R&D guys knew about it then it will be fixed in DP6.

Don't be so sure, notes disappearing from the drum editor is a bug that's been around for as long as the drum editor window has been part of DP and there's been no fix, despite the fact that MOTU is aware it's an issue.

Dubnick wrote:

marcuswitt wrote: i am sure that if the MOTU R&D guys knew about it then it will be fixed in DP6.

Don't be so sure, notes disappearing from the drum editor is a bug that's been around for as long as the drum editor window has been part of DP and there's been no fix, despite the fact that MOTU is aware it's an issue.

You've posted this a bunch of times in the last few days with all the discussion about DP6. It must really impact your ability to use the software. Is there something a user can do to force the bug into happening? I'm wondering because I use the drum editor regularly and I've never had it happen. I'm running DP 5 and using EZ drummer in Tiger on an Intel Mac.

ltemma74 wrote:Is there something a user can do to force the bug into happening?

The power of thought. What we think about usually becomes our reality.

ltemma74 wrote:

Dubnick wrote:

marcuswitt wrote: i am sure that if the MOTU R&D guys knew about it then it will be fixed in DP6.

Don't be so sure, notes disappearing from the drum editor is a bug that's been around for as long as the drum editor window has been part of DP and there's been no fix, despite the fact that MOTU is aware it's an issue.

You've posted this a bunch of times in the last few days with all the discussion about DP6. It must really impact your ability to use the software. Is there something a user can do to force the bug into happening? I'm wondering because I use the drum editor regularly and I've never had it happen. I'm running DP 5 and using EZ drummer in Tiger on an Intel Mac.

I haven't had problems with the drum editor either, but even then, the fact that some users ARE having that problem must be acknowledged. Maybe this is the reason why MOTU hasn't fix this reported bugs... if they can't replicate them, there are no bugs as far as they are concerned. I mean, let's put ourselves in their shoes for a moment: how can they fix something that is not broken (for them, because they can't replicate it)????
Now, IF they have been able to replicate the bugs, AND they haven't fixed them, then THAT is a whole 'nother story...

ltemma74 wrote:

Dubnick wrote:

marcuswitt wrote: i am sure that if the MOTU R&D guys knew about it then it will be fixed in DP6.

Don't be so sure, notes disappearing from the drum editor is a bug that's been around for as long as the drum editor window has been part of DP and there's been no fix, despite the fact that MOTU is aware it's an issue.

You've posted this a bunch of times in the last few days with all the discussion about DP6. It must really impact your ability to use the software. Is there something a user can do to force the bug into happening? I'm wondering because I use the drum editor regularly and I've never had it happen. I'm running DP 5 and using EZ drummer in Tiger on an Intel Mac.

Use the drum editor long enough and you'll run into it - no rhyme or reason. If you search drum editor here you'll find plenty of posts about it. If it has happened to you yet, just make sure you are constantly saving renamed back-ups, cause it will happen (btw, it would be nice if DP made constant back ups like PT and Logic, but oh well). It's not a problem in the regular MIDI window, so it is not a total show stopper, but MOTU's tech support response, or I should say non-response, to this issue is basically the following:

Step 1.) Deny it exists and hope the customer will go away, if that fails, go to Step 2.

Step 2.) Tell them it's been corrected in version x.xx. Should the customer point out that the issue still occurs in the latest versions and show documentation, including posts from several users, go to last resort, Step 3.

Step 3.) Reluctantly acknowledge it's still an ongoing issue and promise a fix in the next update. Hope customer gives up on whatever feature causes the bug to occur and forgets.

I know this routine cause I was on the receiving end of it. It was like the tech support insisting that sky is, in fact , red - the level of denial was amazing.

I am just saying, justifiably so, that assuming MOTU will fix issues in DP might be a tad bit optimistic. I'm looking forward to the new compressor and convolution verb like everyone else, and so long as it works, the comping features, but as far as I'm concerned, DP is an "as is" software - if you find bugs, get used to them - they'll probably be there forever.

Thanks for the reply. I guess I have one more question -- when it happens, does it drop just a single MIDI note event here or there in a 4 minute sequence or do you lose big sections of MIDI data or what...oh nevermind...I'll just follow your advice and do a search!

I suppose we're getting off the subject of the new release about to come down the wire, but, couldn't resist responding to some of the "bug" issues surrounding DP, past and present.

Here's one for you------

Say I have been working on a sound design project with maybe 18-24 stereo tracks, a couple of mono dialog tracks and some MIDI tracks. I do a rough mix in DP using mouse on faders approach (this is pre Mackie control days) and I like what I have done. I save the project, move it to a backup firewire drive and then come back to it 3-4 months later. When the project is opened, all the automation has changed. The MIX has vanished and now there's arbitrary volume and pan points in each of the tracks... Always happens.

I haven't run into the bug in the drum editor, but it sounds as though I will eventually.

I agree, time for DP to look at these long term bugs and do a little more in-depth beta testing with some of us users. I was on a Beta team for Reason on two occasions and they are very deep with bugs and fixes. They don't release a new version unless it's 100%.

Are you listening DP?

Have you created a mix in the mixing board prior to saving? Just wondered if that might not help.

audios wrote: I was on a Beta team for Reason on two occasions and they are very deep with bugs and fixes. They don't release a new version unless it's 100%.

There is no such thing as a 100% release. Reason 4.01 just came out, it included bug fixes. Having said that they (Propellerheads) make some of the most stable software I've ever used.

thracks wrote:

audios wrote: I was on a Beta team for Reason on two occasions and they are very deep with bugs and fixes. They don't release a new version unless it's 100%.

There is no such thing as a 100% release. Reason 4.01 just came out, it included bug fixes. Having said that they (Propellerheads) make some of the most stable software I've ever used.

I agree, personally I think that Reason is "THE" most stable music application "PERIOD". However I still believe it is only valuable as a Virtual Instrument, the built in sequencer is awful and the browser does not live up to the rest of the interface (which is superb).

It makes a terrific match for DP if you have a decent amount of RAM. One advantage Reason has over other VI's is that it runs as a standalone application, thus allowing access to more memory (it does not have to share the RAM alloted to DP). Rewire is also very well integrated in DP. It also loads samples entirely into RAM which I think is cleaner and more efficient. The down side to the RAM approach is that it takes longer to load large patches.

As to DP6, I hope they take the time to put it out in a stable state (unlike 4.0 and 5.0 which were dreadful). DP 5.13 seems to be running pretty good and despite a few issues I still think it is the best "all round" DAW.

Dubnick wrote:

ltemma74 wrote:

Dubnick wrote: Don't be so sure, notes disappearing from the drum editor is a bug that's been around for as long as the drum editor window has been part of DP and there's been no fix, despite the fact that MOTU is aware it's an issue.

You've posted this a bunch of times in the last few days with all the discussion about DP6. It must really impact your ability to use the software. Is there something a user can do to force the bug into happening? I'm wondering because I use the drum editor regularly and I've never had it happen. I'm running DP 5 and using EZ drummer in Tiger on an Intel Mac.

Use the drum editor long enough and you'll run into it - no rhyme or reason. If you search drum editor here you'll find plenty of posts about it. If it has happened to you yet, just make sure you are constantly saving renamed back-ups, cause it will happen (btw, it would be nice if DP made constant back ups like PT and Logic, but oh well). It's not a problem in the regular MIDI window, so it is not a total show stopper, but MOTU's tech support response, or I should say non-response, to this issue is basically the following:

Step 1.) Deny it exists and hope the customer will go away, if that fails, go to Step 2.

Step 2.) Tell them it's been corrected in version x.xx. Should the customer point out that the issue still occurs in the latest versions and show documentation, including posts from several users, go to last resort, Step 3.

Step 3.) Reluctantly acknowledge it's still an ongoing issue and promise a fix in the next update. Hope customer gives up on whatever feature causes the bug to occur and forgets.

I know this routine cause I was on the receiving end of it. It was like the tech support insisting that sky is, in fact , red - the level of denial was amazing.

I am just saying, justifiably so, that assuming MOTU will fix issues in DP might be a tad bit optimistic. I'm looking forward to the new compressor and convolution verb like everyone else, and so long as it works, the comping features, but as far as I'm concerned, DP is an "as is" software - if you find bugs, get used to them - they'll probably be there forever.

The disappearing drum editor is well chronicled here at this forum.
I've never encountered it because of all my music fits within the pop rock time frame. However, for DP users that work with lengthy time lines, the disappearing drum editor and other problems would crop up.

It reached a point that, maybe a year and half ago, (my time line if fuzzy), Shooshie posted a poll where users basically identified whether they there pros (4) working on or planning to work on a CD (3) etc. They also had to indicate the type and length of their projects. The point was to help MOTU identify if indeed there were problems that occurred with lengthy or track intensive projects versus shorter, smaller projects.

My point is that someone who objectively raises on unpleasant point should not be dismissed. There is wisdom in the three tech support scenarios that Dubnick illustrates.

There is a frustration that occurs when dedicated users concerns minimized, combined with a desire to see a given product survive in an ever competitive environment.

I guess you could say we have a responsibility to engage in civil disobedience because of our deep appreciation for DP.

MOTU has an unfortunate policy regarding bug fixes. Probably they think that if they acknowledge bugs and some of their competitors don't, that they will lose customers.

Digidesign, while not perfect no doubt, at least at their forum will frequently respond to a post that looks like a genuire Pro Tools bug (at least in their TDM forum) and frequently ask to be sent the session for evaluation. It seems like they have a little team continually working on post release debugging and they churn out customer service releases on a regular basis. Sometimes they will say they are investigating something and not respond for several months, but then there is a customer service release that lists the bug as being fixed. There have been some significant bugs, but it appears they largely take their largely professional user base pretty seriously (if they seemed too unresponsive, how many film studios with perhaps dozens of $25k HD systems would look for another vendor). Perhaps the difference is an average user is spending 20k on an mid level PT HD system allows more in the overhead for customer service than when a company sells software for a few hundred dollars.

It would be nice if motu would post more advisories regarding
"known issues" less secretly, it would help users know the full scope of what MOTU knows about something like the drumeditor bug- like what circumstances it occurs under (long sessions, only when xy+z plugins are installed, etc.). Then users would not have to be trepidacious about using DP or certain of it's functions. Avoidance of data loss is MUCH more important than adding a new compressor. PT had problems with loss of session data in some of the early PT7.3 versions, which made it worthwhile to skip the 7.3 (appears fixed it later versions) update, regardless of new features. Check duc.digidesign.com for examples and threads regarding the above.