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This forum is for seeking solutions to technical problems involving Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS, as well as feature requests, criticisms, comparison to other DAWs.
kinnylandrum wrote:In the Preferences of Garageband. There's a selection for either Maximum track or minimum delay. Pick Maximum tracks (i.e largest MIDI buffer). Later today when I work on a project that had this problem before again, I'll let you know if the problem returns.
I'm 99% sure that's the audio buffer that's being displayed, not a MIDI buffer. Like in DP, it affects the number of tracks vs. the timing (especially since GB only does VIs, not external MIDI).
Not saying it doesn't have an effect on the porblem at hand...
Yeah-- I was looking at that and found the audio buffers but not the MIDI buffers. I hadn't even opened GB on this computer and realized that I had v. 3.04 under 10.4.10. There's at least a v. 4.1 of GB out there, so I thought maybe there was some new feature in the later/latest version not included in 3.04.
Could it be that MOTU won't recognize this problem because it's only with VI's? As long as no one has found the actual cause, they can always claim (or pretend) that it's due to the structure of the third-party plugin or software. This method is very common if you for example are having problems connecting to the internet. Your distributor most certainly, for as long as possible, claims that it's your computer that needs to be upgraded or adjusted in some way. It's all about the money.
I can't offer any new info, but want to weigh in that I have this dreaded problem as well. It's not only annoying, it's embarrasing when you're working in front of a client. I've bought Logic and may give it a try just because of this problem...although I'm a die-hard DP user from Performer v1.2 about 20 years ago. The BEST thing for us all is if this problem could get solved....somehow!
I agree with Magilla's observations.
I've said all along that it sounds like duplicated MIDI data; the general consensus on the board though has been that it's audio doubling.
Of course it is, but my contention was that it's origin lay in the land of MIDI.
On this one our great simian minds are in agreement, Mike.
Magilla, you're in breach of Monkey Copyright•„•.
That was the first avatar I used after conception (joining da 'Nation LOL).
monkey man wrote:I agree with Magilla's observations.
I've said all along that it sounds like duplicated MIDI data; the general consensus on the board though has been that it's audio doubling.
Of course it is, but my contention was that it's origin lay in the land of MIDI.
On this one our great simian minds are in agreement, Mike.
Magilla, you're in breach of Monkey Copyright•„•.
That was the first avatar I used after conception (joining da 'Nation LOL).
You know, I'm now starting to wonder if the symptoms might not manifest themselves on different systems a little differently. For example, I tried an experiment where I played a short passage with a sample and then copied/pasted that same passage into a second track using the same sample. There was no mistaking phasing in that case. But the surges on my system during normal playback don't appear to be phasing, and I've checked with some trusting ears who don't notice the phasing as a symptom of surges on their systems, either.
With that said, let me say this: I wholly believe that some people are indeed experiencing phasing (because I trust their word and their ears).
It just seems that beyond a certain point, the surge anomaly appears to rear its ugly head in slightly different ways. This could be due to some variance with which DP/OS combo might be at play on different systems.
But these are also just *symptoms* which, to my thinkiing, are still linked to a common *cause*, which in turn appears to be associated with some flaw in memory management, according to what everyone has reported.
I believe that once the cause itself is remedied that all associated symtoms (phasing or not) will go away.
If we keep banging our heads together, we may just trip over the solution.
While I have not experienced these surges lately, I want to reiterate that at times, just after cmd-x edits, the deleted portion would playback as if it were still there.
Also, I NEVER experienced a volume shift in a soundbite and the phasing is not always there in the MIDI data.
Frodo wrote:But the surges on my system during normal playback don't appear to be phasing, and I've checked with some trusting ears who don't notice the phasing as a symptom of surges on their systems, either.
Yea. I think that phasing thing is a whole different issue. This thread is about
"sudden volume change." I know what phasing sounds like, what I get
is not that. It's more like pulling the master fader up and down. (People should start a different thread for that phasing problem...so not to get these 2 mixed up.)
This is the reason I've looked elsewhere and now learning logic. I usually prefer to monitor at a somewhat high level and sudden volume blasts are not welcomed at all !! I don't appreciate the suspense of wondering when the next blast will occur...it's like running blind folded and not knowing when you'll hit something.
iMAS wrote:[...People should start a different thread for that phasing problem...so not to get these 2 mixed up....
I don't agree. The issue is volume shifting. Some of us get phasing with the volume shift, not just phasing. I say keep the thread as is.
Yeah, for the moment the phasing and non-phasing symptoms fold back into the same *apparent* memory problem. There's no question that phasing is going on with some but not others, but everything currently is pointing towards some sort of common memory or buffer glitch.... at least until we figure out otherwise.
Perhaps as we pin this down a bit better, different threads can be started to address unique issues and their solutions. For the moment it seems that different threads will be more or less identical where identifying the process of what causes the surge itself is at issue, with or without phasing.
I just think that the more noggins we have in a single think tank, the faster we might zero in and parse out all variants of the glitch before splintering ourselves off. The divide and conquer theory could play against us if done too soon.
I'm on dialup, writing offline, and posting en-masse, so forgive the probable length of what I'm about to write.
Some observations and comments:
1) First, and most important: thank you EVERYONE for your input. I don't know if we're any closer to solving the problems, but it always makes me feel better when I know that other people both experience and understand that there is a problem, so that I do not feel all alone when I get the same problems. I don't wish my problems onto others, but without the support of others, I lose the motivation to solve the problem, and often just quit doing whatever it was when the problem occurred (like recording, or automation, or Tap Tempo... which means major loss of functionality until I get the motivation again) So... THANK YOU, everyone!
2) I believe that phasing and volume surges are two different problems.
3) I also believe that solving different problems together sometimes offers clues that you don't get when solving them independently. So, no need to segregate our threads. It's better to work on it together. Let's just be clear when we're talking about one or the other.
4) The phasing problem may be 2, 3, or 4 separate problems. For example, the most common phasing problem is simply forgetting to turn off local control or MIDI Patch thru when playing MIDI thru DP from your keyboard. You're getting the same sound twice! Local control is not compatible with patch thru. But that's not the problem we are dealing with here. It COULD be the problem that SOME people experience.
5) The phasing problem that I experience has been around since DP 4.0. It occurs most often with my 896 (Firewire) interface. It has identifiable patterns:
a) there is a series of clicks that occur about 1.5 or 2 seconds apart, each about half the volume of the previous one.
b) The clicks are not recorded into audio.
c) Audio Playback is fine.
d) MIDI playback is fine. It only happens when I'm using the keyboard or other input device.
e) It seems to happens when multiple interfaces are active in the Hardware Setup dialog. For me, that means that at least one of the interfaces is Firewire, if not both.
Sometimes I don't have this problem. For this reason, I think there is a certain combination of setup parameters that collectively contribute to it. Unfortunately, one of those parameters may be "using a Firewire device." I just don't know for sure. In any case, I've cut back to using only one audio interface most of the time: my PCI-424 interface, which is connected to both the 1296 and 2408 boxes, but treats them as one unit.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Audio surges:
I first experienced these in an early 5.x version. There may have been some in a late 4.x version, but I cannot recall for sure. They have been rare, but in one case every channel was in the red, my automation was all glitchy, and I could not get it under control. It took a while, but I finally fixed it, and I cannot remember all the steps it took to do that. There were many things involved. I think the file was corrupt.
I think other audio surges are mostly related to pre-filling buffers while pre-rendering plugins. They may not be related, but it was when pre-rendering became a feature that I began to experience it, if I recall correctly.
There is some issue involving tracks that is also a part of this. On the surface that sounds stupid -- all issues involve tracks. But there was something I observe about a year ago, which I can't remember now, and I had a flash of revelation which of course, I quickly forgot. It had to do with tracks, and how they are stored and addressed. You know, i think it just comes back to the pre-rendering. It just had to do with pre-rendering tracks and holding them in memory for playback. It probably wasn't anything more than that. Sorry...
Tracks which don't belong (either muted, or even maybe from a different chunk) seem to cut in. In some cases, it may be an Aux that is doubling the entire mix -- such as an Aux I set up for reverb, but which I'm not using. Maybe it comes in for a few bars and doubles the mix, raising the volume in the process.
I would like to know if anyone who experiences surges has experimented with Aggregate Devices in Apple's Audio/MIDI Setup app. Even if you once experimented with them and then deleted them, I'm wondering if that's enough to corrupt an open file, or DP's memory architecture. I've experimented with them on several occasions, and started noticing anomalies shortly thereafter. The anomalies always involve track mixups. For example, I'll be working on Pitch-Bend in track X, and it turns out that it's writing to track Y in another chunk! The loony thing of it is that Pitch-Bend is a MIDI feature. The Aggregate Devices are audio. But something got corrupted by Aggregate Devices that started mixing up chunks and tracks. That's all I can say. It may or may not be related to our surges. Or the root problem of both issues may be the same, even if the issues are different.
A lot of conjecture. Sorry I don't have answers. But if any of this stuff resonates with someone else, maybe we'll find a thread of continuity that leads us somewhere.
Shooshie
|l|OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0|l|2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012|l|40GB RAM|l|Mach5.3|l|Waves 9.x|l|Altiverb|l|Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l|Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes|l|Garritan Aria|l|VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l|Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller|l|Roland FC-300|l|
Shooshie wrote:
I would like to know if anyone who experiences surges has experimented with Aggregate Devices...
Yep, and deleted them. Hmmm... BTW, I am certain there is no MIDI looping going on. I forgot that sometimes a muted track would play, but yes, I've had that too. Then playback again and it's muted.
Shooshie wrote:
I would like to know if anyone who experiences surges has experimented with Aggregate Devices in Apple's Audio/MIDI Setup app. Even if you once experimented with them and then deleted them, I'm wondering if that's enough to corrupt an open file, or DP's memory architecture.
Nope. I have never used or experimented w/ aggregate devices.
