Pianoteq version 2 demo version available

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mhschmieder
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Post by mhschmieder »

I didn't want to get us too far off topic with the side references I made to other physical modeling based products, but was never sure this discussion should be in the DP forum vs. one of the others at this site to start with, so am hesitant to start any new topics on the other technologies :-).

Anyway, interesting feedback on Lounge Lizard. It does feel more organic when I play it, vs. when I play Elektrik Piano from NI, but it is hard to judge sound-wise as the demo never expires but fades in and out constantly. I actually get pretty good results from Elektrik on tracking pre-recorded MIDI parts, but I wish it also covered the Yamaha Electric Grands and the more common Hohner Clavinet models vs. the E7 model.

I haven't gotten very satisfactory results from String Studio, though it too feels more reactive than sample-based instruments. I have tried it for banjo, clavinet, and a few other things. But I understand most people seem to prefer it for its possibilities in creating "new" instruments vs. for emulating traditional instruments that are not covered by Lounge Lizard.

The total price of the AAS product suite is a bit high, considering I hate Tasman and Ultra Analog (yes, I know many at this forum love them both, and my not liking them does not make them bad products; they simply don't meet my sound design or tracking needs). I have always been eager for an excuse NOT to have to buy either Lounge Lizard or String Studio :-).

In some ways, the GEM DRAKE technology has appealed to me even more for its renditions of electric pianos (including clavinets) than for its acoustic pianos, as there is less competition in that arena (I don't even care much for the Nord Electro, except for its Wurlitzers).

I will definitely buy Pianoteq as I have no doubt about its long-term viability and growth, and the upcoming features will definitely help a lot as well. I may postpone the purchase a bit, but I'll first see how it stacks up against GEM's DRAKE technology, as I'll need to use that for most live work and for real-time tracking, due to my CPU limitations.

As I just switched to the RME Fireface 800 last week, though, there may be some settings I haven't optimised yet, that are interfering with the ability of Pianoteq (even at 22 kHz internal sample rate) to keep up with tracking live MIDI alongside live audio output (tracking existing MIDI from within Digital Performer is slightly less taxing).

As to the monophonic physical modeling from Yamaha (which was actually tried on a supercomputer for viability towards piano rendering, during the early days of VL research), I get much more satisfactory results for winds, brass, and strings, than with Synful Orchestra's phrase modeling, but I also feel that Synful has a LOT of potential (especially if they improve their raw sample quality) but has further to go in order to be fully viable as a replacement for sample libraries (and certainly there aren't enough instruments or sections currently).

Matt Traum took the best of the factory presets and improved upon them, so you lose nothing by replacing the ROM. I went through the presets thoroughly before replacing the ROM, so I could earmark the ones I would want to load into Custom slots. It turned out that the ones I liked were also in Turbo but much better.

I didn't have time to do a similar experiment with Matt's earlier two-volume set of MIDI files for loading the Custom bank, as it is so time-consuming to only do six patches at a time. I do notice the "Miles" patch is gone from the ROM or maybe was renamed to match one of the new "Muted Trumpet" patches. No worries, as I still have those files (and they entitled me to a $45 discount).

The Yamaha VL covers a lot of bases, but requires more raw playing skills and technique on the part of the user. This is a big reason why it has never been a big seller; though the bigger reason is that it is monophonic and doesn't have a piano patch (which is the first thing most people try out at ANY keyboard or synth, and is the main basis for most people's decisions on what to buy, regardless of how different the needs may be of most of us on Unicornation and other professional forums).
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monkey man
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Post by monkey man »

mhschmieder wrote:In some ways, the GEM DRAKE technology has appealed to me even more for its renditions of electric pianos (including clavinets) than for its acoustic pianos, as there is less competition in that arena (I don't even care much for the Nord Electro, except for its Wurlitzers).
Yup; it seems fine for EPs, if a little harsh on the demos I heard.
I'm sure they'd easily be toned down through editing, though.
mhschmieder wrote:As to the monophonic physical modeling from Yamaha (which was actually tried on a supercomputer for viability towards piano rendering, during the early days of VL research), I get much more satisfactory results for winds, brass, and strings, than with Synful Orchestra's phrase modeling, but I also feel that Synful has a LOT of potential (especially if they improve their raw sample quality) but has further to go in order to be fully viable as a replacement for sample libraries (and certainly there aren't enough instruments or sections currently).

Matt Traum took the best of the factory presets and improved upon them, so you lose nothing by replacing the ROM. I went through the presets thoroughly before replacing the ROM, so I could earmark the ones I would want to load into Custom slots. It turned out that the ones I liked were also in Turbo but much better.

I didn't have time to do a similar experiment with Matt's earlier two-volume set of MIDI files for loading the Custom bank, as it is so time-consuming to only do six patches at a time. I do notice the "Miles" patch is gone from the ROM or maybe was renamed to match one of the new "Muted Trumpet" patches. No worries, as I still have those files (and they entitled me to a $45 discount).

The Yamaha VL covers a lot of bases, but requires more raw playing skills and technique on the part of the user. This is a big reason why it has never been a big seller; though the bigger reason is that it is monophonic and doesn't have a piano patch (which is the first thing most people try out at ANY keyboard or synth, and is the main basis for most people's decisions on what to buy, regardless of how different the needs may be of most of us on Unicornation and other professional forums).
Thank you for obliging on the VL request, mhschmieder.
I can't play the WX-5 for squat, but I do reckon you can edit controllers in DP and fudge the odd sax solo together. Sort of.
Well, at least still a whole lot better than in any ROMpler. :D

Thanks again, mhschmieder.
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toodamnhip
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Post by toodamnhip »

I tried out the demo and found the piano to have a sound I really didn;t care for, kind of a thin ness..and when multiple notes sound, I don;t like the character of the ring which sound like a phoney piano....

The best part to me was the low notes ALONE, which sounded very nice...from the middle up, I am not impressed..I am really not impressed with anything yet in the rhelm of these virtual pianos...I have had ivory since it came out..it is just ok to me.
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Post by Shooshie »

toodamnhip, you're just too damn hip! Can't pull a "phoney piano" over on you! I like Ivory, though. I like it a LOT. Are you listening to version 1.5? Big difference between version 1.0 and 1.5. Plus, it does take a lot of tweaking to get it just right. That's not a cop-out; I'm serious. It really does take hours of tweaking to get the piano of your dreams. I'm not a fan of Bösendorfer pianos, but in Ivory that one has turned out to be an all-around favorite. I don't have the Fazioli, but would like to try it, too.

I know what you mean, though. Nothing quite does it like the real thing. Still... when you compare the difference in price between a studio equipped with a Böse, a Steinway, and a Yamaha, vs. the price of Ivory... that Ivory starts sounding better and better!

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Post by toodamnhip »

Shooshie wrote:toodamnhip, you're just too damn hip! Can't pull a "phoney piano" over on you! I like Ivory, though. I like it a LOT. Are you listening to version 1.5? Big difference between version 1.0 and 1.5. Plus, it does take a lot of tweaking to get it just right. That's not a cop-out; I'm serious. It really does take hours of tweaking to get the piano of your dreams. I'm not a fan of Bösendorfer pianos, but in Ivory that one has turned out to be an all-around favorite. I don't have the Fazioli, but would like to try it, too.

I know what you mean, though. Nothing quite does it like the real thing. Still... when you compare the difference in price between a studio equipped with a Böse, a Steinway, and a Yamaha, vs. the price of Ivory... that Ivory starts sounding better and better!

Shooshie
I am spoiled by my Kawai grand....

version 1.5 of Ivory you mean?..I am not sure..I looked in my comp and saw Ivory stand alone 1.0..

I tried out the Fazoili at a noisy NAMM demo and thought it bit better....but I hate the sound of all these pianos when the note ring..they haven;t got it yet man.....they ring weird..the over tone are strange...I think they are going to have to note only sample note weriously, and I am not kidding here man..THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SAMPLE EVERY CHORD PLAYABLE ON A PIANO AT EVERY VELOCITY...to get it right...

You can make single notes sound good, but chords are just weird...
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Post by Shooshie »

Try Ivory 1.5.

One reason why it doesn't sound right to you is that you're accustomed to a Kawai. Seriously, the piano we know is the piano we measure all others by. I mean, nobody thinks an upright sounds better than a grand, but if it's all you know, then you may not recognize the finer attributes of a grand. But when you're comparing grand to grand, you look for the sound you know.

I'm most familiar with Yamaha and Steinway grands. I grew up loving Steinways, but came to Yamahas in my mid-30's when I became the wrangler of a stable of 6 Yamaha Disklavier Grands. Two were 7 footers; the rest were 6.5 footers. They are wonderful pianos. The sound is more flexible than Steinway. You can push it harder and it gives back more. But it took me 2 years to begin to recognize and appreciate that fact, and I was working with them all day, every day. Now I love the Yamaha, but rather than love one piano more than others, I've kind of become polygamous in my piano marriages. I love them each for what they do best. I think Ivory does about as good a job as can be done, but I am itching to try Sampletekk's huge samples. Check out some of the demos on these. Rather than 8 or 10 layers, they've got something like 32 layers on each note! That does give you a lot more variation in color. I think our ears do pick up on that. I can't wait to try one.

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Post by toodamnhip »

Shooshie wrote:Try Ivory 1.5.

One reason why it doesn't sound right to you is that you're accustomed to a Kawai. Seriously, the piano we know is the piano we measure all others by. I mean, nobody thinks an upright sounds better than a grand, but if it's all you know, then you may not recognize the finer attributes of a grand. But when you're comparing grand to grand, you look for the sound you know.

I'm most familiar with Yamaha and Steinway grands. I grew up loving Steinways, but came to Yamahas in my mid-30's when I became the wrangler of a stable of 6 Yamaha Disklavier Grands. Two were 7 footers; the rest were 6.5 footers. They are wonderful pianos. The sound is more flexible than Steinway. You can push it harder and it gives back more. But it took me 2 years to begin to recognize and appreciate that fact, and I was working with them all day, every day. Now I love the Yamaha, but rather than love one piano more than others, I've kind of become polygamous in my piano marriages. I love them each for what they do best. I think Ivory does about as good a job as can be done, but I am itching to try Sampletekk's huge samples. Check out some of the demos on these. Rather than 8 or 10 layers, they've got something like 32 layers on each note! That does give you a lot more variation in color. I think our ears do pick up on that. I can't wait to try one.

Shooshie
THose Pianos sound great man! You can feel the room they are in, they are clear and when warm, not muddy. So I am not even sure how to get those pianos..do they come with a player?

I am going to check into my Ivory version and I'll get back to you...

I love my Kawai's fat mid range by the way..Yamahas are great for sparkly stuff.whcih I alos love...
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Post by toodamnhip »

Hey Shooshie..when did they come out with the 1.5 upgrade, what are ir's new features?....
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Post by monkey man »

toodamnhip wrote:...I don;t like the character of the ring which sound like a phoney piano... from the middle up, I am not impressed..I am really not impressed with anything yet in the rhelm of these virtual pianos...it is just ok to me.
LOL. Way to go, Hipster. :D

Thanks for keeping it... virtually real... for us! :lol:

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Post by Shooshie »

toodamnhip wrote:Hey Shooshie..when did they come out with the 1.5 upgrade, what are ir's new features?....
Oh, it's been around a while. The major feature was they re-recorded the sound. It's much better. It used to get noisy and indistinct when the action was thick and fast. Now it stays clear.

I think those SampleTekk pianos will run with Kontakt2. Also Giga, if I remember correctly. They may come with a K2 player.

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Post by David Polich »

Well I guess this thread proves the old adage - to each their own. That and talking about how something sounds really doesn't say much.

As long as whatever you have does the job for you and floats your boat, then that's what's important. I recall discussions with guitarists about the merits of Strats versus Les Pauls - it's a draw. Half love one, half the other. They're both great guitars. But there will always be people who say they wouldn't be caught dead playing a Strat, or caught dead playing a Les Paul.

Ok, I'm off to impress some more clients with Pianoteq...which is of course the best piano... :lol:
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Post by mhschmieder »

I'll give that Sampletekk library a listen tonight, and hopefully also fine-tune my new RME Fireface 800 performance enough to make Pianoteq 2 a viable real-time playing and recording option.

Meanwhile, a new suite of acoustic and electric pianos was announced at harmony-central today, somewhat small in library size (in spite of 20 velocity layers) but including some hard-to-find dedicated libraries such as Yamaha CP80 electric grand and Baldwin upright acoustic piano:

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/20 ... olour.html

http://www.powerfx.com/

You'll have to traverse the main website, as the URL does not update in the browser after you select "Virtual Instruments" from the main menu.[/url]
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Post by Shooshie »

One problem with the Sampletekk, which could be a deal breaker: it requires a very fast computer and lots of drive space. That's one humongous VI.

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Post by mhschmieder »

Man oh man, they must not be very interested in selling "The Big One", if that's the best they can do with the demos! Size isn't everything. I find the demos extremely unmusical sounding, and quite grating on the ears. The notes do not interrelate at all, and the timbre is quite harsh (even for a Bosendorfer).

The PowerFX stuff is far more pleasing to these ears, and captures the essence of each instrument whilst simultaneously missing the little extras that make such a difference in providing the illusion that one is listening to the real thing. The Wurly for some reason sounds more organic to me than either of the Rhodes. The acoustics are all impressive for what they are, and come pretty close to Ivory in some cases. These are clearly well programmed, and a steal for the stated prices. Great bang for buck, if not my overall top choice.

After much more listening, Pianoteq remains on top for me by a long shot. It makes my heart palpitate, and the heart doesn't lie :-). The GEM DRAKE-based stuff is close in some ways, but misses the mark when it comes to realism for sustain, sympathetic strings, etc. Sure, it's one step ahead of Ivory in sounding cohesive, but it still sounds a bit like a wash over the main samples. The Wurlitzer impresses me the most of their physically modeled sounds, as it has a nice spank to it.

I am now going to focus on fine-tuning my system performance so I can try to make Pianoteq 2 a viable option for home practice and real-time recording and not just for tracking MIDI files. I can probably also tweak it to stand in for those rare Yamaha CP-80 semi-acoustic piano parts that I need now and then for ABBA, Elton John, and other late 70's music that we occasionally throw into our mostly-80's act.

For those not sold on the Pianoteq approach, I highly recommend checking out those new virtual instruments from Sweden's PowerFX. You might want to keep Ivory for the Fazioli, Bosendorfer, etc., and just get the e-pianos and the Baldwin upright, for more flavours. I might still purchase one or two of them for when I want two different pianos to stand out strongly on a single track/song (though Pianoteq is flexible enough to provide several distinct voicings that will stand apart in a mix, as I've already tried this).
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Post by mhschmieder »

I plunked down the change for Pianoteq 2 today, after optimising my RME Fireface 800 settings and eliminating the occasional crackles I was getting and improving the responsiveness to real-time playing of VI's (the main problem was that the default was to NOT use the Fireface as the Master Clock).

The only additional user presets that I found were the four pianoforte voicings, but I thought I remembered Dave Polich saying he had contributed a few as well. I'll have to hunt down those notes tomorrow.

I am currently using the electro-acoustic preset as a stand-in for the Yamaha CP-80 electric grand, until I have time to delve into programming my own presets. It's certainly an improvement on those abrasive Hohner E7 clavinet samples from NI's Elektrik Piano, which was the closest I could get to the CP80's overall timbre with existing sound sources, believe it or not.

Using Pianoteq saves me a lot of time tweaking MIDI to coax a good performancce out of sample-based pianos. At the very least, I can confidently re-record a part in real-time and get good results that way.
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