Doth the PodXT (presets) sucketh... yea, sucketh mightily?

Spikey Horse · Post by **Spikey Horse** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:58 am

monkey man wrote:`

I never could understand the "wall of Marshall" thing, even 'though they looked pretty cool in the vid clips.

Weren't PA's traditionally less powerful* back then? I'm sure a lot of it was for the look too though .... and of course those players who are still alive are all completely deaf now!

*some kind of inverse correlation to the acid maybe...

markwayne · Post by **markwayne** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:15 am

As someone who first started playing professionally in the late 1970's, I seem to remember that, for most of my early gigs, the PA was almost an afterthought built of cast off bass guitar cabinets and some Atlas horns. I'll never forget turning 18 (I could legally play bars) and joining a high-profile, local band with a real PA and a sound man who knew his craft, who proceeded to tell me that if I would like to ever be in the mix, I would need to shed several cabinets and amps.

Prior to working with that sound man I played through a setup that consisted of (I kid you not) two Marshall 100 watt heads each driving one Marshall 4-12 cab, two Highwatt 50 watt heads each driving one 4-12 cab and one Acoustic 270 (300 hundred watt solid state head) driving an Acoustic 2-15 cab. (For clean low-end thump.) I actually used that rig at everything from high-school dances in gyms to club dates in clubs that seated less than 100 people? Was I loud? Yes, yes I was.

ah, those were the days,
Wayne

Kind Of Loud · Post by **Kind Of Loud** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:41 am

Weren't PA's traditionally less powerful* back then? I'm sure a lot of it was for the look too though .... and of course those players who are still alive are all completely deaf now!

Correct, PA's were not very powerful back in the day...
Pete Townsend was the originator, who first approached Jim Marhall, to build a more powerful amp/speaker combination...Marshall at the time had already been producing 45watt combos and heads with "piggy back" speaker enclosures..(..ie 2x12)...The "Beano" album with John Mayall and Eric Clapton, is the classic reference to what a 45watt 2x12 combo can do.

A more powerful head was created, rated at 100watts...The original cab design was an 8x12......A bit much to haul around...So Marshall " halved" that cab, and voila.....The birth of the "Marshall stack". Guitarist could now play any size venue, without the worries of inadequate PA systems.

But something else also happened.....
Those 100watt heads combined with closed back 4x12 cabs, produced a "tone" that had no equal...Including Fenders..Rich, complex distortion, with dynamics at the roll of the guitar's volume knob.

So with necessity being the mother of invention, the "volume" problem was solved, but it also spawned the greatest "rock 'n roll" amp ever produced.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:32 am

`
Hmm... I think I finally understand the Marshall-stack thing.

Thanks for your informative posts, fellas.
M

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:23 pm

Kind Of Loud wrote:...but it also spawned the greatest "rock 'n roll" amp ever produced.

Preach brother, preach! Amen!

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:01 pm

James Steele wrote:
Kind Of Loud wrote:...but it also spawned the greatest "rock 'n roll" amp ever produced.
Preach brother, preach! Amen!

Yeah, c'mon bro'; please don't stop now.
I'm learnin' plenty, as I'm sure are others.
We were about to "climax" with the "greatest "rock 'n roll amp ever produced".
That'd be the start of the next chapter, right?

Interesting stuff, KOL.
Thank you very much.
M

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:20 am

I think the biggest case of Marshall "overkill" that I saw was the Scorpions tour 1983. I counted sixteen Marshall stacks (8 on either side of the drum riser), plus another row of stacked cabinets, minus heads, underneath the drum riser. I don't recall what the bass rig was, but I think it was Ampeg SVT's.

I'm pretty sure that almost all of the cabinets were empties - that's what Van Halen did, most of the cabinets were dummies. It was just for looks - and it looked great! (and I'm a keyboard player).

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:50 am

Spikey Horse wrote:Weren't PA's traditionally less powerful* back then? I'm sure a lot of it was for the look too though .... and of course those players who are still alive are all completely deaf now!

In the case of Pete Townsend, he blames abusive headphone use for his partial deafness. Loud noises can be damaging, but most long-term ear damage occurs from incessant noise at a fixed pitch.

re: walls of stacks -- I always thought that looked fake and silly. Just like those twenty-plus piece drum kits (not fake, but pretty silly).

I used to joke that it's only a matter of time before we see guitars with ten patch cords and drummers holding sticks in their ears and armpits because, apparently, more is cooler.

Note to self: Start new band. Invest in drumsticks, cables, new soldering iron.

Anyway, I do wish I had a Marshall amp though. Are any of their combos worth owning?

Oh, and I did think Cheap Trick's Rick Nielson's multi-necked Hamers were a hoot. Didn't one have a zither or something? Well, it should have.

markwayne · Post by **markwayne** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:37 pm

Anyway, I do wish I had a Marshall amp though. Are any of their combos worth owning?

Oh god yes! They have made a number of great and classic combos over the years. IMHO the combos are really the better all around amps. The Marshall 4-12 cab, as much as the 100 watt head itself, has pretty much defined rock guitar tone. There is a certain phase cancellation that goes on with having four 12 inch speakers stuffed into a single cabinet and pushed really hard that contributes to the unique midrange in the classic Marshall crunch. However, for jazz, country or blues I prefer one of their single 12 or 2-12 combos.

The one recent model that really impressed me was the TSL122 combo. Great EL34 crunch, but also a really nice clean that rivals any Fender and a dynamic, fluid, articulate blues tone that is as good as I've heard out of any amp at any price.

Wayne

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:33 pm

David Polich wrote:I think the biggest case of Marshall "overkill" that I saw was the Scorpions tour 1983. I counted sixteen Marshall stacks (8 on either side of the drum riser), plus another row of stacked cabinets, minus heads, underneath the drum riser. I don't recall what the bass rig was, but I think it was Ampeg SVT's.

What do you mean "overkill?"

Hehehe Sounds cool! I have a weakness for that sort of ostentatious display. Myself... I only own 4 Marshall cabinets.

Actually overkill of the wrong kind was that Jefferson Starship video way back that had cabs stacked 3 or more high... but they were Carvin cabinets. Nothing against Carvin... but the phrase "wall of Carvins" doesn't quite have the same status as "wall of Marshalls." Yeah baby!

I'm pretty sure that almost all of the cabinets were empties - that's what Van Halen did, most of the cabinets were dummies. It was just for looks - and it looked great! (and I'm a keyboard player).

Yep... dummy cabs. All the rage, even for local bands in the 80s. I remember I knew a guy in the scene here back then who was all excited because he had scored a source for the Marshall logos somehow. Marshall was VERY, VERY protective of this years ago and if you broke off the logo on your amp, you couldn't get a replacement. Any way this guy had something of a little business on the side building lightweight fake cabinets and selling them to hair bands. We were almost ALL hair bands at that time... LOL. I never had dummy cabs though... I bucked the trend cuz I was po' and had just my half-stack. Years later, with more disposable income, I now have 2 full stacks, although I'd sell the second head, but the 2000 DSL is not fetching much of a price on the used market out here.

Any way, sorry for the rant. I've mostly matured in other areas of my life, but when it comes to huge walls of speaker cabinets, I'm still a teenager... that's one type of excess I love. It's part of the show and crowds tend to like it. Even in my cover band a few years back we'd tote Marshall stacks in because it just LOOKED so damn cool. A lot more impressive from an audience perspective to be playing AC/DC with Marshall stacks than a single 12" combo sitting on a bar stool with a Bud Light on top of it. Image was an important thing and full stacks still look great... that's why big bands put 'em out there, cuz audiences like 'em. Who cares if they're micing up a little combo backstage.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:44 am

Interesting James. Some funny stuff in there.

That was pretty-much my perspective on the matter 'till the boys taught me about the old PA thing.

Now, I've finally done a test recording with the variax 700 I cashed my life-insurance in for.
May I say I'm stunned? OK, I'm floored.
Unfortunately, it's probably for all the wrong reasons...

The Variax 700 doth sucketh like it's PODdish bretheren.
Yea, the Variax 700 doth sucketh mightily.
Hear ye also, my brothers, that Variax through POD XT doth sucketh most mightily.
Yea, the mightiest of suckers is... the Line6 Monkey.

Man, talk about turd-polishing.
There's some harsh, nasty stuff happening up high.
Tone? Forgeddabowdit.

Cold, harsh, edgy and characterless.
Oh, and with a healthy-hint of a peizzo transducer thrown in for good measure.
The next generation ought to get a whole lot closer, mehopes.

You've probably heard it before, but be warned Unicorns.
I simply wouldn't go here unless you're desperate for something with strings.

At least there's some variation in tone between models.
Yup, I's gonna be brown-faced for a while, methinks.

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:58 pm

With all this talk of dummy cabinets, I am inspeired: Wouldn't it be cool to have a wall of cabs in the control room, perhaps on the back wall, that actually conceal bass traps and diffusers?

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:01 am

It'd sure impress the "hair gang".

markwayne · Post by **markwayne** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:18 am

Even in my cover band a few years back we'd tote Marshall stacks in because it just LOOKED so damn cool.

Did ya ever see Cheap Trick back in the late 1970's with the wall of empty, ripped-up HiWatt cabs with 1000 watt, par 64 cans instead of speakers? It sort of goes with Geddy Lee's wall of washer and dryers.

I felt the same way as James for a long time. Then, I remember going to see a competing, A-circuit cover band playing one of our main venues. This band had an amazing rep. and we wanted to see what everyone was raving about. This band had everthing setup as side fills. There was nothing on the back line except for drums. They had a state-of-the-art effects rack and an amazing sound man out front. They had ten DBX160s and a gates.

They sounded better than any of us on that circuit at the time. I hated it however. I thought it looked like the most foriegn thing I'd ever seen. Then they asked me to sit in. OMG! The monitor mix was perfect. I could hear everything. I could actually talk to the bass player during a song without raising my voice. They also had all this extra space on stage. The only drawback was that there was no visible eye candy for gear sluts. However, as they explained it to me, gear sluts didn't help alcohol sales at a club. But the garden-variety ones sure did.

Wayne

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:32 am

markwayne wrote:They also had all this extra space on stage. The only drawback was that there was no visible eye candy for gear sluts. However, as they explained it to me, gear sluts didn't help alcohol sales at a club. But the garden-variety ones sure did. ;-)Wayne

Good one, Wayno.

When I was playing bass in a band in the 80's, we gradually moved our gear off to the sides over a period of a year or so.
The further down that track we went, the better we sounded, and the easier it became to communicate on stage.

It all started 'cause we heard the "pros" did it that way, and that it'd sound better at FOH.
As an engineer, you need to be able to separate the FOH from "stage-noise" for a variety of reasons, including level-control, phase and sound-shaping/processing.
As you say, Wayne, "chalk and cheese". Can't argue with that.
Man, those guys sure had an unfair advantage over the rest of you!

Thanks for that info and the laugh, Wayno. BTW, Wayno's just Aussie for Wayne.
I Hope you don't mind; you may have noticed I like this "o" thing as a term of endearment.
Think Davo, Jimbo, Cliffo etc.
Guess that means I like you.

Dang, guys, don't panic; there are no worries there.
I'm a Unicorn, not a Maricon. They sound alike, but are oh, so different!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=maricon

Cheers Wayno
M