MOTUnation.com

I own a MOTU UltraLite but don't use DP. I moved from Logic on a PC to Cubase SX and eventually back to a Mac and stayed with Cubase 4 since I already owned it. I have been thinking of going back to Logic or make the move to DP since Cubase 4 has been quite a problem for me as I describe in a post that I started on another forum and have decided to post here since many of you appear to be users of all three DAWs (DP, Logic and Cubase) and I thought you might be interested. Also, if any of you have the time, would someone please replicate these tests with DP? It would be interesting to see how the top 3 Mac DAWs compare in this area.



At $499 what Mac user could resist purchasing a copy of Logic Studio 8 if for nothing more than to just compare it to Cubase 4.0.3? I couldn't so I purchased it last night. I loaded it up this afternoon and started doing some comparison testing.

I want to preface this post by saying that I am reporting my results and impressions only. I have not tried to conduct a scientifically and statistically validated comparison and do not claim that my results are going to be typical for you or that they are representative of relative quality of either product. I urge those reading this post that have the same equipment and software to conduct the same tests to determine if my results are typical or just an anomaly.

My test system consisted of the following:

Mac Pro, 2.66 GHz quad core computer with standard video card, four 7,200 RPM 0.75 SATA hard disc drives, 8 GB RAM, 30" Apple Cinema Display operated in native resolution, OSX 10.4.10
MOTU UltraLite firewire audio interface, most recent firmware and drivers (core audio)
UAD-1e DSP Card
M-Audio MidiSport 2X2 USB MIDI interface
Behringer BCF2000 controller operated in Logic Control Mode for Logic test and Mackie Mode for Cubase test connected to MOTU UltraLite via MIDI ports
Kurzweil SP88 keyboard connected via M-Audio MidiSport 2X2 USB MIDI interface (used only as controller keyboard and not sound module)

The software used for these test consisted of:

Cubase 4.0.3
Logic Pro 8.0
Wave Arts MasterVerb (most recent version)

For each test described below, both Cubase and Logic projects were set up as 24 bit 44.1 KHz, audio latency was set at 64 samples and low latency mode was enabled.

Test 1

When Cubase 4 was first released and I loaded it up for the first time, I noticed that the VST Performance Meter showed substantial CPU utilization when the latency was set to 64 samples or less, even with an empty project. This concerned me at the time and, if I remember correctly, someone stated that this issue was "normal" when multiprocessors were used with low latency audio interfaces.

I loaded up a new empty project in Cubase and read the VST Performance Meter and also checked CPU demand in the Mac Activity Monitor. The results are as follows:

VST Performance Meter at STOP: 30% of 4 cores (as it did previously)
Mac Activity Monitor: 111% (as it did before)

I then loaded up a new empty project in Logic and read the Logic CPU meter and the Mac Activity Monitor. The results are as follows:

Logic CPU Meter at STOP: 0% (Each Core)
Mac Activity Monitor: 6.1%

Test 2

I then reopened the empty Cubase project from Test 1. I made 24 new stereo tracks. In then imported 24 stereo 16 bit, 44.1 KHz audio tracks from various music CDs, one per track.

At STOP the VST and Mac Activity Monitors read as follows:

VST Performance Meter: 38% (with the CPU overload light flashing at STOP)
Mac Activity Monitor: 100%

At PLAY the VST and Mac Activity Monitors read as follows:

VST Performance: 42% (CPU overload flashing intermittently and noticeable audio dropouts present)
Mac Activity Monitor: 130%

Then I closed Cubase and started Logic. I reopened the empty Logic project from Test 1. I made 24 stereo tracks. In then imported the same 24 audio tracks that I used in the Cubase test.

At STOP the Logic CPU Meter and the Mac Activity Monitors read as follows:

Mac CPU Monitor: 0%
Mac Activity Monitor: 6.1%

At PLAY the Logic CPU Meter and the Mac Activity Monitors read as follows:

Mac CPU Monitor: 6% (Each Core)
Mac Activity Monitor: 68%


Test 3

I then started adding WaveArts Masterverbs as inserts on each of the 24 audio tracks in the Logic Project. When I had reached 120 reverb inserts (5 per track in series) I got tired of adding them so I stopped.

The Logic CPU Meter and the Mac Activity Monitor reading at STOP were:

Logic CPU Meter: 0%
Mac Activity Monitor: 6.1%

The Logic CPU Meter and the Mac Activity Monitor reading at PLAY were:

Logic CPU Meter: 60% (Each Core)
Mac Activity Monitor: 206%

No audio dropouts or artifacts were evident and no excessive UI sluggishness was detected during PLAY.

Since the Cubase project was exhibiting CPU Meter overload and audio dropout with no MasterVerbs inserted (Test 2), I inserted only one MasterVerb on each track and read the meters. The results were as follows:

The VST Performance Meter and the Mac Activity Monitor reading at STOP were:

VST Performance Meter: 55% (CPU overload flashing intermittently and noticeable audio dropouts and artifacts)
Mac Activity Monitor: 176%

The VST Performance Meter and the Mac Activity Monitor reading at PLAY were:

VST Performance Meter: 60% (CPU overload flashing intermittently and severe audio dropouts and artifacts)
Mac Activity Monitor: 191%

Severe audio dropouts/artifacts were evident and excessive UI sluggishness was detected.


This is just my first few tests. I hope some others will undertake similar tests to try to verify my results or be able to show where my testing methods led to erroneous results.

My first impression, assuming my results can be duplicated by others, is that the new Logic audio engine is very efficient and that Apple has appeared to be able to solve the low latency multiprocessor CPU demand problem that has plagued my Cubase setup since I installed Cubase 4.

thelonecynic wrote:I see at http://www.motu.com/products/software/m ... fects.html that the Mach Five has all of these effects, including what I've been wanting, the convolution reverb and guitar amp sim. Why are they not included with DP? Honestly, I'm sick of mic'ing guitar cabs. The Johnson J-Station was fun for a while, but I'd rather just plug my guitar into the interface direct and use DP for processing. Preamp1 is cool, but it takes a lot to dial in the right kind of overdriven tone. Yet, MachFive has a built-in guitar amp modeler! What gives?

I don't run a commercial studio, so my livelihood doesn't depend upon very high-quality third-party plugs superior to Logic's. But as a project guy who does my own pre-production stuff and helps a few other local musicians with their own, I've got an extremely limited budget so I do need a one-stop solution that does it all. I'm hoping DP6 really can pull through for me...and hopefully sooner rather than later.

Massive amen to that, man.

Shooshie wrote:I went to my neighborhood Apple Store today to buy Logic Studio. They were out; they'd just sold the last full copy. (as opposed to upgrades, of which they had plenty)

So, I called another Apple store nearby, and they had one copy, but it was on hold until 6:00. I drove over just in case the guy didn't pick it up. He came in for it right before 6:00, so I missed out. What's with Apple? Why can't they stock their damn stores?

Oh well, it gave me another day or two to think about it. I noticed that it includes all FIVE jam packs. That's $500 right there. So, for the cost of the instruments (which I'm hoping I can also open in MachFive2) one can get the whole bundle. That right there pretty much made up my mind that I'm doing the right thing by getting it.

Still, it's so frustrating to get your hopes up, and then be disappointed that way. I was just sure that this evening I'd be comparing notes between DP and Logic, learning new things about BOTH.

Shooshie

Dude, you put all your Apples in one basket.

daveporter wrote: My first impression, assuming my results can be duplicated by others, is that the new Logic audio engine is very efficient and that Apple has appeared to be able to solve the low latency multiprocessor CPU demand problem that has plagued my Cubase setup since I installed Cubase 4.

Thanks for sharing this info with us Dave

monkey man wrote:

Shooshie wrote:I went to my neighborhood Apple Store today to buy Logic Studio. They were out; they'd just sold the last full copy. (as opposed to upgrades, of which they had plenty)

So, I called another Apple store nearby, and they had one copy, but it was on hold until 6:00. I drove over just in case the guy didn't pick it up. He came in for it right before 6:00, so I missed out. What's with Apple? Why can't they stock their damn stores?

Oh well, it gave me another day or two to think about it. I noticed that it includes all FIVE jam packs. That's $500 right there. So, for the cost of the instruments (which I'm hoping I can also open in MachFive2) one can get the whole bundle. That right there pretty much made up my mind that I'm doing the right thing by getting it.

Still, it's so frustrating to get your hopes up, and then be disappointed that way. I was just sure that this evening I'd be comparing notes between DP and Logic, learning new things about BOTH.

Shooshie

Dude, you put all your Apples in one basket.

I got smart today. I called first. Actually, I've been calling all week, and yesterday I was told they would have some. Other people just beat me to them. Today the Knox Store (near me) got none in their shipment. So I called another Apple Store at Northpark Mall. No Logic Studio there, either. So, I called a third up at Willow Bend. (about a 30 minute drive) None there, either. Three Apple Stores; zero Logic Studios!

I'm mad now. I wanna spend $500. It's burning a hole in my pocket.

Shooshie

You could have ordered it by now and had it shipped! FedEx screwed up so in an hour I have to drive 30 minutes and go pick it up. Not horrible, as at least I will get it tonight.

Now, I CANNOT confirm this yet, but it sounds to me as if the NODE processing in L8 is NOT JUST LOGIC PLUGINS now. I have read a few message boards that talk about it.

Yes

YES!

YYEEESSSSS!!



I will be SERIOUSLY testing this feature. My roomate has a MacPro as well, and my old MacBook. I have a MacBookPro 2.4Ghz dual. I think though I need to put in 1 1gHz backplane first.

grimepoch wrote:You could have ordered it by now and had it shipped! FedEx screwed up so in an hour I have to drive 30 minutes and go pick it up. Not horrible, as at least I will get it tonight.

In Texas, registered studios can get a sales tax exemption on recording gear. I prefer to do it that way and save on shipping and tax, which combined would come to around $80-$90!

I'm not really in a hurry. I'm sure I'll land a copy by this weekend from one of these places:



Shooshie

What a beautiful montage, Shooshie.

Kinda gets me.... right *here*...

grimepoch wrote:Now, I CANNOT confirm this yet, but it sounds to me as if the NODE processing in L8 is NOT JUST LOGIC PLUGINS now. I have read a few message boards that talk about it.

it would appear to be true. no vi's, only processing plugs.
there is a checkbox in the au manager (if i remember correctly) that allows you to enable/disable the plugs for node use. by default, i think logic automatically selects the ones that are (at least in theory) compatible. i don't have a second machine, so i can't test...

kell

What does that mean..." node use"? for plugins?

distributed processing.

I am in the process of installing L8 at the moment on both my MacBookPro and my MacBook so I will defer referring exactly to when I can test it! Later tonight of course!

Got my copy from Guitar Center in New York City...near where I live.

Already installed on my 2.4GHz MacBook Pro..

Super fast to say the least...

Bravo Apple..

Kris..

After seeing a news item about Microsoft having to pay up in Europe, they also mentioned that other companies (including Apple) might be next.

I can't help but think that after daveporter's post on the CPU usage of L8 and Cubase 4, that Apple is holdng back something from developers that enables L8 to run sooo much more efficient. Even when I used Logic 7, I couldn't believe the difference between DP and Logic CPU usage. I wonder if any of these companies like MOTU, Steinberg, and Digidesign might join ranks to push for something - after all, all these apps (PT LE, HD) run so much less efficient than Logic. What gives?

jlaudon wrote:
I can't help but think that after daveporter's post on the CPU usage of L8 and Cubase 4, that Apple is holdng back something from developers that enables L8 to run sooo much more efficient. Even when I used Logic 7, I couldn't believe the difference between DP and Logic CPU usage. I wonder if any of these companies like MOTU, Steinberg, and Digidesign might join ranks to push for something - after all, all these apps (PT LE, HD) run so much less efficient than Logic. What gives?

Perhaps Digidesign and MOTU could ditch their baroque DAE and MAS audio engines respectively -- as a start... if they desire to compete with Logic in performance.

Kris..

jlaudon wrote:After seeing a news item about Microsoft having to pay up in Europe, they also mentioned that other companies (including Apple) might be next.

I can't help but think that after daveporter's post on the CPU usage of L8 and Cubase 4, that Apple is holdng back something from developers that enables L8 to run sooo much more efficient. Even when I used Logic 7, I couldn't believe the difference between DP and Logic CPU usage. I wonder if any of these companies like MOTU, Steinberg, and Digidesign might join ranks to push for something - after all, all these apps (PT LE, HD) run so much less efficient than Logic. What gives?

I've always suspected this to be the case, but it seemed too much like a conspiracy theory on the surface. In fact, someone managed to talk me out of the concept for a minute or two.

For this reason, L8's appearance is very important: If L8 is "that much" faster and more efficient than similar apps (or even its predecessor), then something just doesn't quite add up....

For a while there, it didn't make sense for Apple to do anything to impact negatively on how third party software would or wouldn't work on their computers. When software runs well on Macs, it sells both the software and the hardware... or it used to when Apple was more about computers than general technology.

But I've just seen way too many crash reports of DAE and MAS bumping heads with Core Audio *not* to wonder about what's really at play here. I never figured out why DP Preferences get corrupted so often and have to be tossed out as a matter of routine, or why VIs frequently disappear from the Add Instruments menu making it necessary to dump AU Info Cache fairly regularly for a rescan.

Dunno folks. I still say that how Logic 8 is coded is more important than the sum of its bells and whistles, because its the coding that makes bells and whistles possible with one app-- or highly improbable with another.

This is only my personal opinion and is not based with any scientific evidence but i came from logic 4.5 and also have logic 7 and i noticed at the time when i 'upgraded' to DP that there is a difference in sound to my ears and i know in a sound shoot between DAWS out a few years ago DP came 2nd. I've always thought (wrongly or rightly) that the buss architecture and the internal way that DP processes wave (SD11) files is 'maybe' more complex and hence the difference in sound.

I'm not discounting in any way that Logic has been optimized deeply within its code but this would make a difference in efficiency and CPU loads.

My 5 cents