Digital Performer 11.33 version

[James Steele]

And I'll say one more thing. I'm obviously not new to DP. And I think my bonafides regarding being a supporter and proponent of MOTU and DP over decades should go without saying. I'm just finding that I'm growing weary of making excuses or being an apologist. I watch DP falling behind and I don't think I'm actually helping them anymore by running interference or blunting criticism when it's deserved.

[kurtl]

Does anyone have the mixing board meters glitch? They appear and disappear, don't show at all some times. DP 11.31 is just fine for me. DP 11.32 and 11.33 have the same glitchyness. Everything else works just fine, it's just hard to look at when your trying to mix.

[Michael Canavan]

It's a pretty axiomatic that a DAW can't be all things to all people. I don't really expect that. Personally, there were a couple of times in the past where I felt MOTU was wasting development resources trying to do that very thing. First time I can recall, it was when they introduced a whole bunch of guitar pedal / stompbox effects and stuff like that. That held zero interest for me as if I record guitar, I'm going to record scratch tracks with some sort of modeler and then when I want to record the actual tracks, I'm one of those weirdos who likes to put a microphone in front of a guitar amplifier cabinet. I know... right?

The second time was the clips feature. I'm sure some people love it and I can see it would be handy for me if I want to actually arrange MIDI in the TOV as a block.... for example 8 bars of a drum pattern, etc. But as far as the clips view, etc. I thought it made no sense this late in the game to try to "out-Ableton" Ableton. But again... some people may love it. Again holds no interest for me.

The issue is DAWs like FL Studio, Reason, and Ableton Live are actively making inroads into recording studio tech, they're getting at least the basics of recording, mixing and editing audio for traditional bands, and all of them started out as looping sequencers. I mean I totally get the idea of giving you enough to not have to go to another DAW. The issue is when it doesn't match or compete with that implementation. So the Amp in DP is just not that great, it's not going to replace Amplitube here for instance.

So yes, a DAW developer can't try to appeal to everyone. I think DP ought to play to its strengths.

Therein lies the rub. You've used DP as long as me, you know it started out without audio at all, it was a MIDI sequencer, so things like the groove template section were there before audio was introduced. The pivot for Cubase, DP and Logic came in the late 90's. So are we to expect they always compete with Pro Tools or do they continue to compete for MIDI and sequencing space? I think those three in particular (along with the new kids that follow like Reaper and Studio One), have no choice but to offer an "all in one" approach. The choices are all in one, sequence/loop oriented, and audio recording. It would not make sense for the MIDI sequencer to begin with DAWs to abandon MIDI and sequencing standards.

That said, in my case, the features I really want right now don't work well. It's not like they didn't try to support outboard hardware or EUCON... they did. And if you were new to DP and you visited their website and read the promotional material you'd think "Hooray! It's supported! I'm all set." But there are varying degrees of support. Not to belabor it but DP's hardware insert implementation and EUCON implementation is objectively the worst of all the Mac DAWs I am familiar with that do that. DP is behind Cubase, Pro Tools and Logic all do it better... and those could be considered "dinosaur" DAWs as well right? Cubase has been around a long time. Logic goes back to eMagic days. Pro Tools obviously was Digidesign many years ago. Yet somehow they've managed to do those things better than MOTU has.

It's just frustrating. Again, no... I don' think a DAW needs to "excel at all aspects of music," but if you're going to claim support for something... maybe it should work properly? Especially if you've had years to address the problems.

For sure, control surface support is lacking in DP, it's a small set etc. How well do Logic and Cubase support Eucon? I totally expect PT to support it, it's their standard from what I know? I recall the Mackie Control standard started off as a Logic/Mackie standard, that had Mackie release a DP Control version, then the Mackie Control and now a standard...

I really hope for the best here, it's possible solid Eucon support is something they need to really dive into the code for? It might be something that only comes with v12. I mean it could be as bad as plugin sandboxing where it seems like everybody would be copying, mostly DAWs crash because of AU/VST plugins, but it seems to be a huge undertaking to sandbox plugins so they do not crash the DAW when they're coded wrong for that DAW.

[Michael Canavan]

And I'll say one more thing. I'm obviously not new to DP. And I think my bonafides regarding being a supporter and proponent of MOTU and DP over decades should go without saying. I'm just finding that I'm growing weary of making excuses or being an apologist. I watch DP falling behind and I don't think I'm actually helping them anymore by running interference or blunting criticism when it's deserved.

IMO the Windows support was a mistake, they did not for years seem to be able to get the Windows version as solid as the Mac Version and DP has lost some clout because of this. In many ways it's amazing DP is still around, Cubase starting a universal plugin standard with VST, Emagic being bought by Apple and Logic becoming the de facto Mac DAW while DP was still Mac only. Then honestly them releasing the Windows version too early, when it crashed on peoples computers all the time. They've survived all of that, but at times I wonder myself.

I have plugin issues lately, hangs and crashes towards the end of projects, just for fun of course. I got an AU MAS error the other day so it's obviously a plugin, and the fun of the crashes being not repeatable enough to start removing plugins to see if I can't catch the problematic one.

I'm a die hard though, I do tend to want to support the underdog, and at this point this would be DP, it also serves my needs for the most part.

[James Steele]

So yes, a DAW developer can't try to appeal to everyone. I think DP ought to play to its strengths.

Therein lies the rub. You've used DP as long as me, you know it started out without audio at all, it was a MIDI sequencer, so things like the groove template section were there before audio was introduced. The pivot for Cubase, DP and Logic came in the late 90's. So are we to expect they always compete with Pro Tools or do they continue to compete for MIDI and sequencing space? I think those three in particular (along with the new kids that follow like Reaper and Studio One), have no choice but to offer an "all in one" approach. The choices are all in one, sequence/loop oriented, and audio recording. It would not make sense for the MIDI sequencer to begin with DAWs to abandon MIDI and sequencing standards.

Yep... used DP since it was P and it fit on a single floppy disk on a Mac Plus. As audio on computers became viable it makes sense that added audio capabilities to a MIDI sequencer. And for decades music apps like the ones you mentioned have been expected to do both.

That said, in my case, the features I really want right now don't work well. It's not like they didn't try to support outboard hardware or EUCON... they did. And if you were new to DP and you visited their website and read the promotional material you'd think "Hooray! It's supported! I'm all set." But there are varying degrees of support. Not to belabor it but DP's hardware insert implementation and EUCON implementation is objectively the worst of all the Mac DAWs I am familiar with that do that. DP is behind Cubase, Pro Tools and Logic all do it better... and those could be considered "dinosaur" DAWs as well right? Cubase has been around a long time. Logic goes back to eMagic days. Pro Tools obviously was Digidesign many years ago. Yet somehow they've managed to do those things better than MOTU has.

It's just frustrating. Again, no... I don' think a DAW needs to "excel at all aspects of music," but if you're going to claim support for something... maybe it should work properly? Especially if you've had years to address the problems.

For sure, control surface support is lacking in DP, it's a small set etc. How well do Logic and Cubase support Eucon? I totally expect PT to support it, it's their standard from what I know? I recall the Mackie Control standard started off as a Logic/Mackie standard, that had Mackie release a DP Control version, then the Mackie Control and now a standard...

In case you've missed my posts about it... regarding "How well do Logic and Cubase support Eucon?" the answer is and has been: Well. Very well. Much better than Digital Performer IMHO. Custom parameter maps work properly. Adding a plugin to an insert via a control surface is actually do-able because those other apps present you with a hierarchy, where as DP tosses you into a "root level" where in order to choose a plugin you must page through EVERY plugin on your system 16 at a time (on an S3) or 8(x) at a time where x = the number of S1s you may have.

I really hope for the best here, it's possible solid Eucon support is something they need to really dive into the code for? It might be something that only comes with v12. I mean it could be as bad as plugin sandboxing where it seems like everybody would be copying, mostly DAWs crash because of AU/VST plugins, but it seems to be a huge undertaking to sandbox plugins so they do not crash the DAW when they're coded wrong for that DAW.

I hope it's something they're doing with DP12. In the case of the issue with custom parameters maps not working the frustration is that they work fine with Pro Tools (as you would expect) and with Logic and Cubase. I'm just tired of going into detail over and over about it and reporting stuff over and over and nothing seems to happen. In the case of custom parameter maps, it's a very powerful feature where you can set it up so that when you decide to adjust parameters of a plugin, only the parameters you desire, in the order you desire, appear on your control surface's encoders. You do that once, and from then on, in any project, just those parameters appear when you edit a plugin. This works flawlessly in Pro Tools, Logic and Cubase. When you set it up in DP, it works once... (don't think even that happens now.) Once you quit and relaunch DP (or is it simply close and reopen a project? I don't recall.) and you go to adjust the parameters of the plugin all you see on the *once-relevant* encoders is "n/a n/a n/a" and the knobs do nothing. From that point on you cannot actually edit that plugin unless you go to: <user>/Library/Preferences/Avid/Consoles/KnobMaps/ and find the XML file which will be named after your plugin and delete it. FYI, that XML file will contain mapping data for that plugin for every DAW on your Mac that supports EUCON in which you've set that up. So deleting it to bring back rudimentary default parameter access in DP deletes your work for all other DAWs. So basically it's not worth attempting in DP.

I'm honestly exhausted on the subject. I've spent hours testing, documenting, making videos demonstrating it to MOTU. They've known about it for months. Last time I contacted them to ask them what's up they wanted me to interface with Avid and offered to "help* Avid, whereas given that this feature works in the other apps I mentioned, maybe it's MOTU who needs Avid's help? But they did reproduce it in-house, they know about it, so at that point I'm thinking to myself, hey... I'm not employed by MOTU... I'm not drawing a paycheck from them... why don't YOU guys communicate with the Avid guys and fix a problem you've known about for months and can reproduce? Why am I involved? Bottom line is apparently they just don't have the bandwidth.

I'm getting weary of the whole process and at some point you just say to yourself, "Hey... that's cool. If having these things work properly... like EUCON support and outboard hardware... are important to me, maybe I"ll just start using something I know works rather than beating my head against a wall and continuing to try and convince MOTU to do something about it?

Maybe... just maybe this is all going to be moot with a DP 12 release? I guess time will tell.

[Michael Canavan]

Maybe... just maybe this is all going to be moot with a DP 12 release? I guess time will tell.

There is definitely some room for hope. One area of DP that is IMO behind Bitwig, Logic, Live and I imagine Cubase is plugin parameter mapping and the fact that those DAWs all do the sort of thing you're mentioning Eucon does, and we see in Komplete Kontrol where a plugins selected set of parameters can be assigned to show up on a random control surfaces knobs and sliders by default. This IMO is an area of DP that needs improving, because it doesn't exist at all right now, I mean it wont' even set the current parameter for a plugin when you select it to draw automation, you have to pencil in something close.

This change wouldn't just affect Eucon, it would be possible to use any control surface that had MIDI knobs and faders to control parameters you decided were most important for a given plugin. Bitwig in particular do this pretty well, with it also being able to be used instead of MIDI learn for plugin parameters you need only for that project.

Obviously the Eucon takes it a step further with LED readouts and being able to load a plugin, but the basic idea of plugin parameters you choose being available in any project is something missing in DP at this point.

Oh and fixing thew FX (and adding virtual instrument) latency adjustment should be a thing for sure. MOTU have a chance of doing it better than other DAWs in terms of hardware instrument inserts, since all DAWs that do this don't have program changes in the HW plugin, so you have to set up another track for that if you want that.

[Michael Canavan]

Oh and we are two months away from this being the longest time between versions, 3years four months, two versions since v4 have been 3y5m and 3y6m. So IMO we are due soon for a drop there. Definitely by January.

[dix]

Enhancements and optimizations
• Improved OMF/AAF compatibility with more recent files, and fixed some import issues on Windows.
• Improved error handling when importing OMF/AAF files containing incompatible audio formats.

This is huge.

For the first time, I think since I've been using DP, I was able to import an OMF, not created by ProTools, without it crashing. Since OMFs crated in video editors have always crashed DP on my system(s) I've routinely maintained a subscription to PT for the sole purpose of being able to create DP friendly OMFs - for whatever reason OMFs made with PT do not crash DP . I know some have been able to import them into DP without crashing, but for me it has always meant instant-crash when importing. This fix has been a long time coming and is very welcome.

[James Steele]

Enhancements and optimizations
• Improved OMF/AAF compatibility with more recent files, and fixed some import issues on Windows.
• Improved error handling when importing OMF/AAF files containing incompatible audio formats.

This is huge.

For the first time, I think since I've been using DP, I was able to import an OMF, not created by ProTools, without it crashing. Since OMFs crated in video editors have always crashed DP on my system(s) I've routinely maintained a subscription to PT for the sole purpose of being able to create DP friendly OMFs - for whatever reason OMFs made with PT do not crash DP . I know some have been able to import them into DP without crashing, but for me it has always meant instant-crash when importing. This fix has been a long time coming and is very welcome.

That’s good news. However, until some longstanding issues in DP are fixed, I will likely be focused on moving projects *from* DP *to* Pro Tools.

[EMRR]

Does anyone have the mixing board meters glitch? They appear and disappear, don't show at all some times. DP 11.31 is just fine for me. DP 11.32 and 11.33 have the same glitchyness. Everything else works just fine, it's just hard to look at when your trying to mix.

I see it at times, not frequent.

[HCMarkus]

I see it at times, not frequent.

Same here in 11.32; yet to see in 11.33.

[mikehalloran]

I see it at times, not frequent.

Same here in 11.32; yet to see in 11.33.

Likewise

[Rick Cornish]

Just installed v11.33.

Opened the preferences window and the Preference categories initially did not highlight to indicate which one is selected.
Was initially unable to change the theme.

Now it works.

[dix]

Enhancements and optimizations
• Improved OMF/AAF compatibility with more recent files, and fixed some import issues on Windows.
• Improved error handling when importing OMF/AAF files containing incompatible audio formats.

This is huge.

For the first time, I think since I've been using DP, I was able to import an OMF, not created by ProTools, without it crashing. Since OMFs crated in video editors have always crashed DP on my system(s) I've routinely maintained a subscription to PT for the sole purpose of being able to create DP friendly OMFs - for whatever reason OMFs made with PT do not crash DP . I know some have been able to import them into DP without crashing, but for me it has always meant instant-crash when importing. This fix has been a long time coming and is very welcome.

That’s good news. However, until some longstanding issues in DP are fixed, I will likely be focused on moving projects *from* DP *to* Pro Tools.

I never did have any problems exporting from DP to ProTools.

...we're sorry to hear about the troubles with your control surface, James. I'm doing more work in PT these days, not because of that issue, but because DP has virtually abandoned development on post production audio tools, effectively conceding that market to ProTools. A small company like MOTU really have to pick their battles I guess, which means certain users' needs become a lower priority - my read is that large template film score composer's are the priority.

[greg328]

Does anyone have the mixing board meters glitch? They appear and disappear, don't show at all some times. DP 11.31 is just fine for me. DP 11.32 and 11.33 have the same glitchyness. Everything else works just fine, it's just hard to look at when your trying to mix.

Yes I have had that in 11.32. Just updated to 11.33 today so I need to check for that misbehavior now. The problem is exacerbated when I move the detached mixer window across to a different monitor-I have 3 arranged side-by-side.


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