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stubbsonic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:27 am You are probably already doing this. Just a general comment that sometimes people can hear these epic demos that sound "full" and "lush" and not notice that shapes of the notes are all the same, all wrong, etc. For people who are checking out demos, it's just a thing to be aware of-- the strings can sound both good, and wrong at the same time.

Super wisdom there Stubbs. I sure wish young whippersnappers would get that truth. one of my oldest pals who is a world class studio designer with background at Lincoln Center, says this to me often about the VI orchestration that he gets to hear when out and about. 'doesnt sound like music to me'. Your statement is one very good reason why.

labman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:07 am

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:27 am You are probably already doing this. Just a general comment that sometimes people can hear these epic demos that sound "full" and "lush" and not notice that shapes of the notes are all the same, all wrong, etc. For people who are checking out demos, it's just a thing to be aware of-- the strings can sound both good, and wrong at the same time.

Super wisdom there Stubbs. I sure wish young whippersnappers would get that truth. one of my oldest pals who is a world class studio designer with background at Lincoln Center, says this to me often about the VI orchestration that he gets to hear when out and about. 'doesnt sound like music to me'. Your statement is one very good reason why.

So if I understand correctly, no matter what, VI orchestration will always suck and not be any close to real sound. Is that what you mean?

Gate 13 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:41 am So if I understand correctly, no matter what, VI orchestration will always suck and not be any close to real sound. Is that what you mean?

Not at all.

I wanted to offer a tip to help with selecting the right orchestral VI. The demo material can give you quite a bit of information about the sound, and the playability of the library.

My main point is that, when listening to the demos (as part of the shopping process) some people may need shift their attention to thinking about PHRASE SHAPE. Several times, I've referred to a common issue of all notes swelling after attack. This isn't how human string players play legato phrases. I also referred to all notes having long releases, which again is not how legato works in real life.

So when you are shopping for libraries and checking out demos, just listen for these things, too.

I'm impressed by how well some libraries do this. (libraries that I cannot afford, BTW).

It was also mentioned that many of the most impressive demos were not plug&play. Hours of tedious work was done to achieve that level of realism.

Higher quality libraries allow a combination of articulation switching controls, and realtime inputs like sliders or breath control to help achieve post-attack contouring of notes-- which together can yield a more realistic phrasing.

Gate 13 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:41 am

labman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:07 am

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:27 am You are probably already doing this. Just a general comment that sometimes people can hear these epic demos that sound "full" and "lush" and not notice that shapes of the notes are all the same, all wrong, etc. For people who are checking out demos, it's just a thing to be aware of-- the strings can sound both good, and wrong at the same time.

Super wisdom there Stubbs. I sure wish young whippersnappers would get that truth. one of my oldest pals who is a world class studio designer with background at Lincoln Center, says this to me often about the VI orchestration that he gets to hear when out and about. 'doesnt sound like music to me'. Your statement is one very good reason why.

So if I understand correctly, no matter what, VI orchestration will always suck and not be any close to real sound. Is that what you mean?

I'll piggyback on Stubbs here... I don't think that is what he is saying. My interpretation is, "VI orchestration will always be an approximation of the real thing."

How close the approximation needs to be depends on: 1. Its Application (what it will be used for), and 2. The Listener.

How close the approximation will be to a real orchestra depends on three things: 1. The Artist's Abilities, 2. The Tools (VIs and Augmentation - real instruments) used by the artist, and 3. Time/Budget

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:26 am\I've referred to a common issue of all notes swelling after attack. This isn't how human string players play legato phrases. I also referred to all notes having long releases, which again is not how legato works in real life.

This.

And it's why I love the modeled strings... I just play Audio Modeling VIs using Breath Control and After Touch, and it comes out sounding like a real instrument. Not necessarily exactly like a cello or violin performed by a skilled musician, but evocative, with notes connected in a way that feels right. No overlap. No slow fade-ins. Attack and release determined by how I manipulate the controllers. I can do this in real time, and find it incredibly gratifying.

The above stated, I also find that setting the modeled strings within a bed of sampled strings can, depending on the situation, make a huge difference.

When budget permits, I'd like to buy the Sample Modeling strings; it seems that Sample Modeling's approach is likely to get closer to the timbre that sampled strings provide. But opinions on the attributes of these two powerhouse instruments vary, so who knows what my ears will prefer?

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:26 am

Gate 13 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:41 am So if I understand correctly, no matter what, VI orchestration will always suck and not be any close to real sound. Is that what you mean?

I'm impressed by how well some libraries do this. (libraries that I cannot afford, BTW).

Thank you so much. Can you name one or two of those libraries?

Gate 13 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:10 am Thank you so much. Can you name one or two of those libraries?

I think the Vienna Symphonic Libraries are amazing.

I found the AudioBro LASS strings to sound very natural. They have some newer libraries, but I'm not very familiar with them.

Michael Shuman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:31 am Agreed, but it tooks much more space on hdd than LA Score strings in which you can change parameters to sound better.

How much room the libraries take up is completely separate and unrelated to being able to adjust sound parameters.

For serious pros, I think the question of how much drive space a library occupies is answered like this:

"If you have to ask..."

It's not quite fair to say that the size in GB of a library is an indication of quality, --but for a non-modeling sample library the size will be large because of many instrument types, longer notes, many pitches, velocity layers, articulations, microphone positions, etc.

However, the engineers did not plan the project well, and failed to do proper quality control at all stages, you will end up with a library that is not worth the space it occupies on your drive.

Audiobro just announced an update to LASS -- LASS 3. It's the same library as LASS, but with the better audio engine and GUI that they developed for their other libraries. They have upgrade path and loyalty pricing for previous owners. The Look-Ahead feature alone is probably worth the price of the upgrade! I generally prefer MSS over LASS, but had great success with LASS before MSS was released. I also find that LASS can add some really nice sweetening and thickening to stuff I've done in MSS. Check out the comparison between LASS 3 and MSS for lists of their different feature capabilities.

Michael Shuman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:37 pm Size is not an indicator of quality but indicator of technical possibility. If you have for example librasry for 100 gb it means that you will have much more space to work with this instrument rather than with 80gb library

I don't understand this.

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:55 am

Michael Shuman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:37 pm Size is not an indicator of quality but indicator of technical possibility. If you have for example librasry for 100 gb it means that you will have much more space to work with this instrument rather than with 80gb library

I don't understand this.

Don't pay attention on him!

Smart using of string libraries can do these things..
(by Performance Samples, CSS, Berlin Strings...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BnA2cVGwrg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oesGAL3jkyU

BTW for solo violin it is best this ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-uCOBkzgzM