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macnylonguitar wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:57 am And I worked at Apple when Apple acquired Logic from Emagic back in 2001-2002 or so.

You might know my friend Will, I think he was in QA at that time, mostly Mac Pros.

I have been thinking of moving to Logic, mainly since there is a far higher user base than DP, and collaborating, etc is just easier, Logic is Apple owned, so it will always be close to "zero day" support for macOS, and of course now M1 chips. We are 5 months or so in, and waiting for M1 support from MOTU.

It will probably be a while for M1 support. A beta tester mentioned months ago that they didn't need him to get an M1 mac yet, but that was months ago so...

I really, really, really want to stay with DP. I know it. I think it is more logical, intuitive, and powerful, than Logic. The GUI is nicer, the mixing console is nicer, love the the new app "zoom"... but it is haggard in many ways, plugins... That being said, I have my plugins: Waves F6 EQ, Valhalla reverbs, ToneBooster Barricade limiter, Waves WLM, iZoptope De-click, etc... But look at Logic included: Fab Filter type channel EQ, Pultec type EQ, API type EQ, Console EQ, Compressors (admittedly a bit boring looking), Chroma and Space Designer reverbs, Alchemy, etc synths.... and yes what is the deal with UVI Falcon / Mach 5... I owned Mach 5 back in the day. How about include a discount on UVI Falcon for DP users...

Someone else mentioned but UVI have been pretty dammed cool about still honoring their "crossgrade" to Falcon, just write them and they will give you a coupon code. Logic definitely has better virtual instruments, and a little more audio fx than DP for sure, but I've got a ton of third party. I've used Logic as my main DAW in the past, it's not bad, but the feel is definitely more about track by track composing and not so much a virtual studio per say. That's what throws me, it's much less geared towards bigger compositions and more towards 16 24 track pop songs, at least that's my take.

Next question, typically DP is updated around NAMM or mid year..How much longer?

Of course the next update will support M1... What will it include and will be it be free?... Maybe just a M1 "update", which would be free. But what would be impactful, is a nice new update, like a 10.5, with what is aforementioned would be great.. Even if there is a price, I would happily pay it, since I know DP and want to stay...I may wait until June 2021, but not Jan 2022. Let's go MOTU, please...

So typically a new version of DP is announced around NAMM, and doesn't come out until May or June. That's my guess. I'm also pretty certain we're going to get a paid upgrade instead of an update. I would appreciate a final stability update, but I kinda doubt thats' going to happen.

It could very well take longer because they want to support M1 out the door. There's definitely some legacy GUI code going on in DP, it's not as snappy as other DAWs here on my system, and I'm willing to bet that's a huge part of the code they have to fix for M1 support.

NI are even further behind. MOTU introduced a scalable GUI in the last couple years, so the code has been updated a bit. NI are 15+ years behind here. Hopefully Kontakt makes it to M1 before I die.

As a latecomer to DP (started with DP 9.5), IMHO, DP has 3 'issues' that are hamstringing it in the current DAW world:

• AU/VST/VST3 support (Mac and PC) needs to be more elastically robust. What I mean by this is that both Ableton and Reason have no issues with many of the plugins that DP 10 has-- DP fails analysis of the plugins. There are AU plugins that pass Apple's AULab but fail in DP. I have several TechLinks open and they have been in 'in-progress' for months. As one of the above posters has said-- there are workarounds and we usually endup finding them.

• Educational Base: DP doesn't seem to have an educational base now that it once had. Most of the courses I have taken-- Berklee, CalArts, etc. all use: Ableton/Logic, Reason. This is especially tough for newcomers when they are taking courses, whether by an accredited institution or other, to spend an extra hour or two figuring out how to do something that is 'just a few clicks' in the DAW the instructor is using. For someone without 'years' of DP or audio [engineering] under their belt-- translating the use cases (layout and sound), plug-in settings, sidechaining, aux busses, etc. was painful but educational. Hopefully, better for it-- but time/energy that could have been used for creativity was spent figuring things out.

• "Modern production features"-- I know this is very subjective, but there are basic techniques used all the time now in music production, such as: sidechaining, dynamic compression, saturation, etc. that can be done with DP, but you have to hunt for it, download a plugin [see point one] and figure it out. Sidechaining is the most blatant one-- Ableton and Logic do this simply-- you pick a track for the sidechain input and the routing is done 'automagically'. Saturation-- the first time I needed to do this in a course, I searched on saturation in DP Plug-ins-- it gave one reference in the MW FET-76 compressor section. Guess what, Logic, Ableton (and Reason) have saturation plugins or multi-effect plugins to perform saturation-- easily found. Yes, I learned more about what saturation is by having to research, etc. but it took a lot longer and had to download a couple plugins to get the sound right. Time once again that could have been used creatively.

I like DP and use it-- it is very logical, but at times it is arcane and requires more workarounds than should be needed. It is one of the better cross-platform DAWs-- this is a requirement for me. The audio engine is great. To me (subjective), it sounds better with less tweaking than some others.

Geez, most of these are easily solvable. Makes me feel like a complainer.

rp88.2 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:42 am As a latecomer to DP (started with DP 9.5), IMHO, DP has 3 'issues' that are hamstringing it in the current DAW world:

• AU/VST/VST3 support (Mac and PC) needs to be more elastically robust. What I mean by this is that both Ableton and Reason have no issues with many of the plugins that DP 10 has-- DP fails analysis of the plugins. There are AU plugins that pass Apple's AULab but fail in DP. I have several TechLinks open and they have been in 'in-progress' for months. As one of the above posters has said-- there are workarounds and we usually endup finding them.

Yeah Reason for me has VST issues, but IMO Live is a slightly unfair comparison, Live doesn't even really evaluate plug ins. I've owned Live for 15+ years and for the most part it does a great job, but chasing stability for VST plug ins is one of the worst things in Live, since it does't even do an AU evaluation type test in the first place. Logic has a similar number of failed AU, but VST3 IMO needs a lot of work in DP. Again though, VST3 is pretty much universally panned, there's a reason developers get all hell bent on still doing VST2.

Just pointing out that DP isn't alone in the plug in compatibility dodgeball game.

• Educational Base: DP doesn't seem to have an educational base now that it once had. Most of the courses I have taken-- Berklee, CalArts, etc. all use: Ableton/Logic, Reason. This is especially tough for newcomers when they are taking courses, whether by an accredited institution or other, to spend an extra hour or two figuring out how to do something that is 'just a few clicks' in the DAW the instructor is using. For someone without 'years' of DP or audio [engineering] under their belt-- translating the use cases (layout and sound), plug-in settings, sidechaining, aux busses, etc. was painful but educational. Hopefully, better for it-- but time/energy that could have been used for creativity was spent figuring things out.

MOTU has been doing twice weekly webinars on DP for a solid year now, so hundreds of hours of training to choose from. They still haven't released much, partially due to a new version of DP looming in the horizon, but there is a plethora of video to sort through that hopefully they eventually release a good amount of it.

As far as accredited courses, all I can say is Jake Paul a youtube star fought a retired wrestler in a boxing match that probably made more money than Tyson VS Wilder did. We are living in a time when all the supposed authenticity of punk and alternative has been swept aside for basically trash fandom. I don't even hate Logic, Live, Pro Tools etc. but it is ridiculous that teaching facilities basically gear towards whatever is popular these days.

• "Modern production features"-- I know this is very subjective, but there are basic techniques used all the time now in music production, such as: sidechaining, dynamic compression, saturation, etc. that can be done with DP, but you have to hunt for it, download a plugin [see point one] and figure it out. Sidechaining is the most blatant one-- Ableton and Logic do this simply-- you pick a track for the sidechain input and the routing is done 'automagically'. Saturation-- the first time I needed to do this in a course, I searched on saturation in DP Plug-ins-- it gave one reference in the MW FET-76 compressor section. Guess what, Logic, Ableton (and Reason) have saturation plugins or multi-effect plugins to perform saturation-- easily found. Yes, I learned more about what saturation is by having to research, etc. but it took a lot longer and had to download a couple plugins to get the sound right. Time once again that could have been used creatively.

This one is sort of a big ?? to me, Ableton 11 must have new things because before it was one of weirdest shortcomings of Live, that sidechaining was clunky. DP supports sidechaining in plug ins that support it. I don't know of workarounds for plug ins that don't support sidechaining, which is possible in Live, if that's what you're talking about.

I like DP and use it-- it is very logical, but at times it is arcane and requires more workarounds than should be needed. It is one of the better cross-platform DAWs-- this is a requirement for me. The audio engine is great. To me (subjective), it sounds better with less tweaking than some others.

Mostly Chunks and selection options in DP are far better than other DAWs to me. Plus even with some shortcomings the routing is like Live in that it's dead easy. Logic OTOH is a PITA routing wise, not set up like a studio, like that reeping DAW.

I know I'm jumping into the middle of this, but is anyone just about ready to abandon DP for Logic? I've held off for about as long as I can with the no-support for Big Sur/M1 junk. It would seem they must be having major problems over there, in terms of staffing...or something.

Running a DAW managed by Apple, on Apple hardware, is sounding more and more ...logical.

I am a non-film guy, DAW/notation only.

wunderpit wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:44 pm I know I'm jumping into the middle of this, but is anyone just about ready to abandon DP for Logic? I've held off for about as long as I can with the no-support for Big Sur/M1 junk. It would seem they must be having major problems over there, in terms of staffing...or something.

Running a DAW managed by Apple, on Apple hardware, is sounding more and more ...logical.

I am a non-film guy, DAW/notation only.

You have an Intel Mini i7 running DP 10.13, same as me. I also have a load of plugins that are dodgy on Big Sur -- and maybe you do too. What is the practical advantage of a DAW that runs on a M1 to those of us who don't have an M1 and depend on earlier OS versions?

I use DP, Logic and Mixbus, all running well on the current system. So far the only advantage I've seen in Logic 10.6 is that it runs on an M1, which I don't have, and don't plan to get for a while, if ever. Doesn't look like it does anything else of interest.

It's too bad that Apple's decision to change the hardware to reduce dependency on Intel leads so many to conclude they have to follow suit, and that their current set up is no long usable.

One of the side results of this lockdown is that I have gotten familiar with Logic. Could I do most of my work in it? Yes. Do I want to? Oh hell no!

We have reports of people using DP over Big Sur and I can make it work on my (unsupported) 2012 MBP, too.

I'm not worried about DP support for OS 10.11. It will come at some point. Many of my plugins don't support it yet, either.

Apple not releasing a new iMac for pro users yesterday means that this is not a compelling issue for me. But when they do, my 18 core iMac Pro will be at its maximum value on the used market so I will time my pre-order appropriately. If DP isn't quite ready, that will be the time for me to make decisions such as sucking it up with LPx for awhile or installing DP over Rosetta.

I can wait.

wunderpit wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:44 pm I know I'm jumping into the middle of this, but is anyone just about ready to abandon DP for Logic? I've held off for about as long as I can with the no-support for Big Sur/M1 junk. It would seem they must be having major problems over there, in terms of staffing...or something.

Running a DAW managed by Apple, on Apple hardware, is sounding more and more ...logical.

I am a non-film guy, DAW/notation only.

I used Logic solidly from 4 to 8 after jumping ship in around 2001, I came back.

I dunno in the bigger picture I have to admit I'm pretty DAW agnostic, they all have strengths and weaknesses. The reason I came back was before Apple bought them Logic was heavily customizable, I used a 7 button mouse with it and flew, I had a super fast workflow for me anyway. Logic 7 was a dog, that didn't help either. I'm admittedly a fan of underdogs, and was slightly repulsed by the plethora of new users who wanted to be using the Apple DAW. The main reason broke down to fear that Apple were dumbing Logic down. In Logic you can 'hide' tracks, kind of their less fast more permanent version of the Track Selector in DP, my issue was pre version 8 you could choose separate tracks to hide or show in the Mixer and Arrange pages in Logic, and they took that away, which I find pretty stupid really. It's the kind of thing that a company does when they know too many tech support calls are coming in because new users are confused. Logic also has a huge for me annoying issue with summing all MIDI ports on input, you get 16 MIDI channels, and no port recognition. The other caveat to me is the way the bussing works, it's, weird. Logic shows you MIDI with Click and ports, but audio pathways are... just a convoluted mess of odd ideas. I mean it works and in some ways it's elegant but it's not like any other DAW. A multi instrument in Logic can be set up with Aux tracks that are also MIDI tracks, visually they look like copies of the main track, even "hosting' the Aui, but they're aux tracks, more or less.

Not to downplay Logic, Apple has thrown a ton of features in Logic I wish DP had, articulation mapping is great, and it's frustrating DP10 currently doesn't have that. The GUI is far snappier than DP's, there's no arguing there, the built in soft instruments and samplers are far far better, you could literally use only them and write great songs. Logic has massively better control surface support, including macro controls for 'automapping' commonly used parameters on a soft instrument to your controller so every time you pull up Diva for instance, the filter and oscillator settings are right there for you on your controllers knobs and sliders etc. Logic did Clips right straight out the door, it's added into their iPad remote app for control, they partnered with Novation for hardware support, and it has freaking stop buttons,(if you don't know what I mean by that believe me, it's a truly useful feature in grid type arranging set ups), Logic also handles MPE instruments out of the box with no issues, set to All, and it works. You're limited to the 16 MIDI channels unlike other MPE capable DAWs, but it doesn't require you to create 16 MIDI channels like DP currently does.

All in all Logic is pretty great, but I still think the basics in DP are better, the bussing, track selection, track grouping options, GUI, and even the direction they've taken it recently is better IMO. Adding in Effect Performance window, Run Command, search functions etc. etc. These are all not flashy, but they're long term useful features. Plus, and this is nit picking, but Logic does some weird crap for saving resources in terms of record enabled tracks, it just bothers me the lag there, and often you're stopping the playback and restarting it to "even out" the CPU resources. Logic doesn't show you individual plug ins that are using CPU, it shows you cores, and it's common to see it stacking on a few cores while others are dormant, it's easily fixed by stopping and starting the playback, but I find it absolutely crazy that ten years later it still exhibits this behavior.

I could name and shame DP as well of course, but I think in the bigger picture it's just what you're comfortable with. Logic will break things that make no sense to break, the other thing I notice the screwed the pooch on recently was Tool selection, you have to first call up the tools, then select it, it's either that or right click scrolling through contextual menus, but only in certain context. Not a fan, back when I was using it exclusively I had all sorts of single letter commands set up for Tools, and now it's clunky.

It's been the case for about 20 years now for the most part that Logic and Cubase will get the new thing, whatever that thing is, but it's not always the best implementation of it. For now I'm personally keeping Logic around, ( I used it recently for Strip Silence on an audio fixing job I did, because 10.13 was crashing using it on my system ), but I just find myself liking to write in DP over other DAWs.

To summerize if you're still with me through this novel I wrote, I think DP's core is in better shape than Logic, it's an Apple DAW now, but it feels a little like the sort of stacking on top of a flimsy framework that Windows is, with weird hoops to jump through to get things working correctly. Setting up VEP in Logic is a great example of this...

Guitar Gaz wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:09 pm

Michael Canavan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:36 am DP might not be in the top 5 DAWs out there, (Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Live, FL Studio) but it sits in the second tier nicely next to the others, (Bitwig, Reap, what's left of Sonar, Reason, Studio One, Samplitude etc.) ....

I still use DP at times, but I think you are way out of date by regarding Studio One as second tier.

I got bored. So this isn't the be all end all metric, but going by the largest Facebook groups for all the DAWs I can think of, your favorite Studio One is a Rising Star™, but it's still not in the top 5 like I mentioned. Considering a huge portion of the hemorrhaging that Studio One has caused to Cubase this seems accurate to me. Previous to Studio One I would consider Cubase to have more users than Logic even, then again you're an example of hemorrhaging from DP so... Of course my two favorites are near the bottom. I did not add in all groups, Bitwig has a dozen but most were tiny with only one being big at all. It seems fair that a user would be in most, I'm in all three DP user groups I know of.

Pro Tools - 143k members.
FL Studio - 132k
Ableton Live - 101k
Logic Pro - 85k
Cubase - 51k
Studio One 39k
Reason 25k
R***** 18k
Sonar 7.2k
Bitwig - 5.4k
Digital Performer 3.7k
Traction Waveform 1.1k

Having just done a little learning curve stint with the current Logic Pro, I'll piggyback on Michael Canavan's comments.

First of all, Logic's documentation seems to have an advertising-focus. It brags about functions without bothering to tell you where to find them. I spent a couple weeks in frustration before realizing that "Advanced" features were hidden by default. Second, there are some plugins (instruments and effects) with out-dated GUI's that are not only clunky and ugly but they are laughably difficult to see & read.

Logic's bundled instruments, audio effects, and MIDI insert effects, are very good, indeed. Some of the plugins/instruments have really powerful, deep editing features. When you choose a pre-fab instrument, itl automatically sets up a buses and aux channels for bus fx. I had to get used to Logic's we-assume-this-is-what-you-want approach.

DP's MIDI quantize, arpeggiator and transpose functions are better than Logic's. The DP's Dynamic EQ and masterworks EQ are both really nice.

With all the nice things I discovered in Logic, I'd still prefer to do creative work in DP. I could see mixing in Logic.

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 8:54 am Having just done a little learning curve stint with the current Logic Pro, I'll piggyback on Michael Canavan's comments.
----snip---
With all the nice things I discovered in Logic, I'd still prefer to do creative work in DP. I could see mixing in Logic.

Exactly my thoughts particularly the manual. To learn Logic you really need something like Eli's 7 hour tutorial on the basics. The first lesson lists the stuff you have to do to have the faintest hope of getting something done. The first thing is the "advanced" option.

I also get distracted by Logic's "never mind what you want, here's how we do it" workflow.

bayswater wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 9:15 am I also get distracted by Logic's "never mind what you want, here's how we do it" workflow.

I think in many ways, that's a challenge with lots of music tech. Unless you have an established process, the tech will exert a huge influence on your workflow and (perhaps insidiously) your results. My sense is that DP in many ways tries to stay neutral in terms of how you work and what you make.

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:06 am

bayswater wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 9:15 am I also get distracted by Logic's "never mind what you want, here's how we do it" workflow.

I think in many ways, that's a challenge with lots of music tech. Unless you have an established process, the tech will exert a huge influence on your workflow and (perhaps insidiously) your results. My sense is that DP in many ways tries to stay neutral in terms of how you work and what you make.

It's been a while since I worked in Logic, but my impression was exactly the opposite of this. Logic felt like a wide open programming environment with no prescribed or accepted way of doing many basic functions. Just a bunch of powerful tools scattered willy-nilly. Whereas DP has always felt like there's an intelligence behind the design compared to Logic - almost like a collaborator that's on the same page as me, rather than a set of random features.

dix wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 12:02 pm It's been a while since I worked in Logic, but my impression was exactly the opposite of this. Logic felt like a wide open programming environment with no prescribed or accepted way of doing many basic functions. Just a bunch of powerful tools scattered willy-nilly. Whereas DP has always felt like there's an intelligence behind the design compared to Logic - almost like a collaborator that's on the same page as me, rather than a set of random features.

That's valid. I think it depends on which aspects of the program you look at, and as you say, the "page" you are on.

In the case of setting up tracks and channels, Logic does much of this automatically. One could argue that it is more efficient. At first, in Logic, I was busy going around deleting all the channels that Logic was automatically creating-- later I just gave in (there's just gonna be a bunch of buses feeding 6-8 aux channels and buses with reverbs and compressors on them, it is what it is. Years ago, slower processors meant you didn't want a bunch of convolution reverbs showing up uninvited.

Mostly Logic is in the same sort of word place that DP is, being an old school DAW that's trying to gain traction in the new market. So as a user of Logic form 4.7 to 8, coming back to it presents some weird challenges because previous to 9 or 10 dix was right to a degree, you set up Logic the way you wanted to work. Which is how DP IMO does it. At some point around 8 things started creeping in to make life 'easier' for new people, so multi instruments in Logic are odd... it sets up instrument type tracks that all have their own audio out and MIDI channel for each multi in a Kontakt instance say. It's not a bad method, it just has nothing to do with traditional recording studios or hardware, there's no comparison to be made.

Plus there's a lot of choices made right away, you have to activate Advanced Features, which again is just? who buys Logic to have GarageBand? It will offload tracks without MIDI or audio data in the arrangement, which means essentially there's a pause when you select an instrument to play it, so you're again going into Preferences to uncheck a box that makes Logic look like the most latency ridden DAW, just on the off chance that you have a MASSIVE project that requires every bit of CPU etc.

The GUI is better though, and I don't mean the look of it, it's just 10x snappier. There's also no comparison included instrument wise. I really wish DP had the same sampler included, that's a big one because to me when I do any of my own sampling it's really nice not to have to save it outside of the DAW.

In the end though DP is a super underdog here, and it's not behind Logic at all when it comes to the core underlying bones of the DAW, in fact it beats the snot out of Logic there. One single VEP instance for 700+ tracks, VS a massive cluster f**k of a workaround in the Environment in Logic to get rid of those very same 'instrument' style multi MIDI and audio tracks that will suck up CPU on any big VEP project.

dix wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 12:02 pm

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:06 am

bayswater wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 9:15 am I also get distracted by Logic's "never mind what you want, here's how we do it" workflow.

I think in many ways, that's a challenge with lots of music tech. Unless you have an established process, the tech will exert a huge influence on your workflow and (perhaps insidiously) your results. My sense is that DP in many ways tries to stay neutral in terms of how you work and what you make.

It's been a while since I worked in Logic, but my impression was exactly the opposite of this. Logic felt like a wide open programming environment with no prescribed or accepted way of doing many basic functions. Just a bunch of powerful tools scattered willy-nilly. Whereas DP has always felt like there's an intelligence behind the design compared to Logic - almost like a collaborator that's on the same page as me, rather than a set of random features.

I guess the comment is mostly about the way it sets up tracks, particularly VIs. Might sound minor, but it really the platform for everything you do. You never really get to see the signal path or make any decisions about how to set it up. The relationship between tracks and channels is a total mess once you get past a very basic song. Have a look at Edgar Rothermich's comments on this in his books to see what that's about.

To some extent the mixer too. There are options on what is or isn't shown, but there's never a way to get the specific things I want to see.

There's how to get a multi out VI, and all the kludges various VI makers have come up with so you don't have to go into he dreaded Environment page. (You wanted 4 outs? Tough, you can have 2 or 64. Which is it? Don't worry, we'll hide the ones you don't use where you'll never find them.)

Then there was the time I got a MIDI region in an AUX. I asked the Logic gurus about that. Yes, they said, I've seen that --- no idea what's going on there.

Of course none of this stops you getting stuff done for very long. But you do go down a lot rabbit holes. Logic has a lot fo good stuff and has come a long way from the days when you had to actually draw an imaginary cable to connect the MIDI input device to the sequencer. (Yes you stupid program, I DO want to record MIDI into the project).