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Thanks for that anecdote; since I'm starting out on my own I wanted to make sure I had PT so potential clients wouldn't see me as "not up to par" with larger studios. I'm doing this independently, so I want to avoid any potential pitfalls before they come up.

I did not grow up with tape, so I don't know why this is the case, but the way PT handles regions for comping, and in groups, for instance, suits the way my mind approaches it perfectly. I haven't worked with tape and razor, but I comprehend the concept. There are some concepts in DP that are impossible in the real world, which is part of what makes it amazing, but more difficult for me to wrap my head around. (Especially when people say MIDI works like it would with real gear, but then turn around and say the opposite for audio).

And I can't play with it today, I'm at the beach with my family (on a forum, I know...), but some of this came up on the drive earlier with my wife. She is a photographer and graphic designer, so she appreciates my situation. She didn't use Apple Aperture, but she knows she could have, and that's what I'm worried about with PT. Native plugins aren't going anywhere, BYO Interface means the interface market is booming (though my next will probably be MOTU whether I'm on DP or not...), but there are some niggles. I realized that I can't drag 2 mono files from the Soundbites onto a stereo track like I can in PT, and it's little things like that which are making it feel tedious. There are wonderous things people can do with the power of DP, but I don't want to do wonderous things all the time. Usually I want to do boring normal stuff, and that's not what MOTU seems to have been focusing on since I started on 4.5


Also, I realized a serious issue: the DP font is hard for me to read. And the text is ALWAYS TINY. What's up with that? I'm young and have good eyes. This must be hell for some of you old guys! Btw, I'm on a 21.5" iMac at 1920x1080. It's nuts how hard to read...

Anyway, back to the family and the beach and the real world. If my foot weren't broken I'd be surfing I could use some zen right now.

For what this might be worth, I switched to DP for MIDI, but still plan to use Nuendo for most of the audio-intensive work (nothing against DP though as I'm sure I'll do plenty of audio there as well - just no Eucon on Windows for DP would leave me without a mixing surface). I used ProTools for scoring and audio for a while. It lacks in MIDI editing, but it does quite well for pretty much anything audio related. One downside I see is Avid's subscription model may turn into a much bigger income drain than it already is.

As a somewhat new DP user, here are a few of the plusses in DP for me, based around some of your questions -

1 - MIDI is excellent in DP. It really shines in film scoring (smart phrasing is a huge plus here). For beat-based pop music, there are plenty of options, but there it becomes preference more than features. For film, DP is hard to beat.

2 - MIDI tracks vs. instruments - I prefer the separation, having used DAWs that have both, or tracks that can be anything. It makes for much easier organization of large projects, and separating MIDI from audio (instrument outputs run along side of audio returns from slave systems, stem busses, etc) when it comes time to mix. It makes more sense when you think of MIDI as a patch cable instead of just a recording medium.

3 - Chunks is a weird name, but a great concept that works incredibly well.

4 - Text and some GUI elements are very tiny. I've learned to live with it, until MOTU improves visibility, esp. on Windows. That might be easier to do for composers as we work alone mostly, so no one else needs to see what is happening on screen, even during client previews (only the film has to be highly visible). Recording bands - you have clients in the room, and a GUI with tiny text could either be an advantage or disadvantage depending on how you look at it, or don't want clients looking at it.

5 - DP's commands list is the most customizable I've ever seen in a DAW, and it's probably *the* most customizable whether I had seen it or not. That is huge for adapting DP to whatever work one needs to get done. This alone has saved me a lot of time over working in a DAW that, on paper, has more features. DP9 added a few features that really made the switch worthwhile for me - ymmv of course.

Those are just a few observations from my move to DP. Perhaps it helps in a little, in addition to the more specific feedback already posted.

Btw, I'm on a 21.5" iMac at 1920x1080. It's nuts how hard to read...

I run my 27" iMac at 1980x1080 and it looks pretty good to my old eyes.

You can get a 27" backlit LED monitor retail for $250. For $150, I can get a 24". (Less $ online)

The latest and greatest are all backlit and HDMI. An adapter runs $7 up.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywor ... dytk3x3t_b

You can pop the mixer out of the Consolidated Window and run it on your 21.5".

(Especially when people say MIDI works like it would with real gear…

One of DP's strengths

but then turn around and say the opposite for audio).

The big reason to buy DP

I did not grow up with tape … I haven't worked with tape and razor, but I comprehend the concept.

OK, I believe that you believe.

The first time I ever edited audio in DP 2.x followed the last time I ever used a splicing block. As Pete Townsend wrote nearly 50 years ago,

"I'm free! I'm free!
And freedom tastes of reality!"

Never again unless I'm showing someone how we did it on the old days.

mikehalloran wrote:I run my 27" iMac at 1980x1080 and it looks pretty good to my old eyes.

You can get a 27" backlit LED monitor retail for $250. For $150, I can get a 24". (Less $ online)

The latest and greatest are all backlit and HDMI. An adapter runs $3-$7 You can pop the mixer out of the Consolidated Window and run it on your 21.5".

1080 at 27" is much higher ppi than at 21.5".... Text is much more condensed to fit in smaller amount of square inches available... Also, there is no video output on an iMac, except Thunderbolt, but those monitors are expensive.

(Especially when people say MIDI works like it would with real gear…

One of DP's strengths

but then turn around and say the opposite for audio).

The big reason to buy DP

I did not grow up with tape … I haven't worked with tape and razor, but I comprehend the concept.

OK, I believe that you believe.

Why is it a strength to work like real gear when software is so much more flexible (as exhibited by the audio editing capabilities)?

And I did not say that I can imagine what the workload must be like to splice tape, I'm saying that my mind comprehends the concept, not that I think I could do it. Just wanted to make that clear. I don't ever want to work with spicing tape. Recording a master to tape for effect, maybe, but not to edit tape!!! That said, I like the concept of tape editing, because it makes sense, like when I take an audio region from a take in PT and move it from the playlist to the comp take, it's like someone did an excellent job with a razor and moved that piece into perfect place on the top take. it can further be moved around, edge edited (unlike real tape, but that's how the rest of any DAW works, so that's reasonable to expect), and x-faded, etc etc.

I'm not saying it's better, I'm saying it's easier to conceptualize.

Maybe I'll continue to use it for editing (drums) while I'm getting comfortable with DP.

Jamie wrote:

mikehalloran wrote:I run my 27" iMac at 1980x1080 and it looks pretty good to my old eyes.

You can get a 27" backlit LED monitor retail for $250. For $150, I can get a 24". (Less $ online)

The latest and greatest are all backlit and HDMI. An adapter runs $3-$7 You can pop the mixer out of the Consolidated Window and run it on your 21.5".

1080 at 27" is much higher ppi than at 21.5".... Text is much more condensed to fit in smaller amount of square inches available... Also, there is no video output on an iMac, except Thunderbolt, but those monitors are expensive.

You don't need a TB monitor. The adapter I linked to will work. TB supports Mini Display Port. If you live near a Best Buy, they have a whole bunch.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage. ... lt+to+hdmi

Weird that Apple sells MDP to DVI and VGA adapters but no MDP to HDMI. Fortunately, many 3rd parties do and they're cheap. Backlit LED HDMI is what you want.

Before you argue again, look it up.

http://www.apple.com/shop/question/answ ... APDJXKYFKH

WOW that is news to me!! I've had the darn thing for almost 5 years and I'm learning it had a video output this whole time??

THANK YOU

Now for a 27" dual IPS glass screen monitor for under $200 haha

Jamie wrote:WOW that is news to me!! I've had the darn thing for almost 5 years and I'm learning it had a video output this whole time??

THANK YOU

Now for a 27" dual IPS glass screen monitor for under $200 haha

uh yea.... The Backlit LED HDMI monitors are nice but they no longer have glass screens. Backlit is important -- your iMac is. I have a slightly older, non backlit DVI monitor that's not nearly as nice. The LG that I bought a few months ago is actually cool to the touch.

I have a third monitor on my iMac via USB. There's a whole thread on that on how to use a USB-HDMI monitor adapter. A few of us do and it works surprisingly well.

These threads often unearth interesting details that I had forgotten about, or maybe not even known, but there's something annoying about picking apart the details of a DAW and saying that this is weak and that is strong, so this is better than that, and maybe I'd better go with that, because it's got XYZ, etc., etc.

It just comes down to making a choice and doing it. After working with DP for so many years, I'm accustomed to it, of course, but when I try other apps, I find that I seriously do not like them. It has to do with streamlining of operations. Can you do a full edit of a MIDI line in one sweep? You can in DP without having to line up multiple lanes or windows. Can you draw in controller shapes? If you look at page 2 of the DP Tips Sheet, scroll down to an article called Control point editing in DP's MIDI Edit Window. Or something like that. If you follow the steps in the post, you'll learn how to do complex controller line edits such as vibrato with a certain "spin" to it, in what amounts to one move, using modifier keys as you go. It's simply amazing. I love doing that sort of thing in DP, and not one other DAW I've seen can do it like this, even if they have controls that appear to copy DP's.

Then there's the perennial problem of editing MIDI that has a lot of control points under it. How do you select exactly the control points that go with the MIDI you want to edit? That was a problem until I took the time to create some customized commands, which I describe in this article: Working with Selections in DP. Ever since then, picking up exactly the right control points has taken me probably 1/10 of a second, after I select my MIDI. The post may look long and complicated, but the process it describes literally is a double keystroke. It's just a method — a workflow.

There are seemingly endless workflows possible in DP. Some of mine involve the Search window. How many DAWs even have a search feature? You can search for rhythmic figures, by or attributes, range, and... well... it's best if you just go there and spend about a half hour learning all it has to offer. While you're doing that, check out Split Notes. It, too, has a tremendous ability for picking out events to highlight and/or move to another track. These are some of the reasons why I prefer a selection method, rather than "MIDI Objects." I spend more time trying to turn off the MIDI Objects grouping than anything else in DAWs that work that way. You can always move a selection precisely where you want it to go with the SHIFT command. Or drag, then nudge to a final position.

I can't say my preferences are any better than others' prefs, but they are my preferences. You guys can talk up MIDI objects all you want, but I can't stand DAWs that work that way. It feels like using a "Playskool" app for making little songs. I expect to create a performance that cannot be distinguished from live performance. "Snap to Grid" cannot do that. If you want snap to grid, you'll find it in the Adjust Beats feature, where you move the beats to match your performance. THERE it is important. But if an edit grid suits you, by all means go with something that gives you an edit grid. I've reached the point where I'd be happy if MOTU would add a "snap-to" edit grid to DP, just so we don't have to see that particular conversation again. But I'll raise holy heck if they make it the default!

I actually like the way they implemented MIDI Mutes in DP9. That works for me, and I didn't even particularly want it.

The bottom line is that you choose a DAW and make the best music you can with it. I've never come across a situation that DP can't handle. Whether that's my limitations as a user or DP's strengths as a DAW is something you'll have to decide, but it works for me. Always.

Shooshie

I have much more experience with pro tools, so keep that in mind.
I find that pro tools is faster for audio editing, IF you are very fast at editing. If you are of average speed in PT and use the multi tool I don’t know that there’s much difference. There are things I prefer about each. I don’t know that there is anything you can’t do with DP that you can do with PT, just differently. They are more alike than any other DAW’s I’ve used, but some things take a while to figure out of course.

For what you describe I can’t see how DP would cause you any problems, but really it’s personal taste and workflow, nobody knows but you after you try it. I like it for my personal creations, even though some things still frustrate me.

I have know idea what Avid is doing, but I (and everyone I know) am/is still using PT 10.

kgdrum wrote:

Jamie wrote:... Or change V-Racks to Floaters.

Floaters?

MLC , I think this might be one for you to answer...

[Grabs long-armed pool net, slaps on anti-bac flip-flops and heads towards the deep end]

"No worries, Magilla; I've got this one... I mean, these... cripes! Look at 'em all!"

I'm good with skimmers. Floaters, not so much...

this again

mikehalloran wrote: Weird that Apple sells MDP to DVI and VGA adapters but no MDP to HDMI. Fortunately, many 3rd parties do and they're cheap. Backlit LED HDMI is what you want.

This may not even be interesting, but I'll mention anyway. For years Apple was steadfast in its opinion that HDMI was going to be a dead-end. MDP appeared to be a direct competitor to HDMI. Eventually Apple put HDMI on the Mac Mini after a few years of not playing with he neighbor kids.

I'm actually surprised that Apple sells a DVI to HDMI adapter, as DVI does not carry audio. Apple tends to sell/make things that encourages the least amount of tech. questions possible. Even while MDP eventually became the same plug as Thunderbolt, Apple does have a funny, and distant, attitude towards adapters. They carried very few in stock and, in many stores, won't even put them on the "shelves."

Moral of the story is, Apple will be as accommodative as their very specific competitiveness; for better or for worse.

I worked at a few of their stores over the course of four years, during the whole anti-hdmi era.