What audio interface do you use?

davelee · Post by **davelee** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:01 pm

Apogee Ensemble.When I went from an original 2408 to the Ensemble the change was dramatically better.

slotz71 · Post by **slotz71** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:31 am

I'm using a PCIe-424 card connected to two 2408 Mk3's and one 2408 Mk2. These are then connected via ADAT lightpipe to an SSL Alpha Link MADI-AX, Apogee Rosetta converters and a Yamaha 01-V (don't ask why).
Been using the MOTU interfaces for years and have never had a problem.

Frodo, I see you are using the Alpha Link with a MADI card. Was thinking of doing the same but I do like how the PCIe-424 card makes input monitoring a breeze when tracking. I've always felt like DP worked more efficiently when used with MOTU interfaces and their own drivers. How has the MADI setup worked for you?

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:34 am

I had a 2408II (stolen) and 2408III for years. I never gave much credence to more expensive converters till I got to compare a few.

We got an HD192 at the studio. It was a night and day difference. It made the 2408III sound cheesy and plastic. I wasn't even trying to compare them - it was obvious! The depth, clarity, and stereo width was much better. I really like the HD192. Now I just need 12 channels of analog pres to go with it

A couple years later, I did a recording of a solo piano with a Digi 002 - a 1917 Steinway Grand. Yum. Finished the project. I thought was okay, but I had a difficult time dealing with some very "pingy" frequencies and muddy low end. Nonetheless, the client liked it and asked me back a year later to record another solo project.

In that time, I picked up the Apogee Duet for my home set up. I used it for the new project. Same piano, same setup, same mics... HUGE difference. All I can say from that experience is the Digi 002 is crap. The Apogee was smooth, rich, clear, deep, and wide. The 002 was dark, flat, and narrow. It was like driving a Lexus compared to a Suzuki.

Now I'm not saying Apogee is the top of the line and it does compare well to the HD192, if not slightly richer in sound, but it doesn't have 12 ins and outs either. Apogee makes a great product, but is definitely more in the mid-range price-wise. The Symphony looks like a great setup, but I find their card architecture a bit odd. If I had my drothers, I'd have 16 analog ins, 16 Lightpipe ins, and 8 analog outs. I work mostly in-the-box, so I mostly need inputs.

Anyway, the HD192 is a great upper, low-end converter with tons of bang for the buck. The Apogee has all the rock and roll you'd like from a good converter with a price tag to boot. Beyond that, the sky's the limit and you will pay accordingly.

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:30 am

MOTU HD192 & 24 I/O.

frankymax · Post by **frankymax** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:44 am

I had been using a MOTU 828 Mk11 and decided to try an Apogee Ensemble when they first came out. I A-B-ed them for a few days and I couldn't believe the difference in sound. The Ensemble just opened up the whole sound and it was a night and day difference. Much clearer highs and defined lows and the mids were also more detailed. I'm thinking about upgrading to the Apogee Symphony system, but that's a lotta $$$!

bjornln · Post by **bjornln** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:35 pm

Frodo wrote:Gosh! No PCIe from MOTU? If anything out there were leading people to believe that such a thing did not exist, I'd do anything to clear the air. It's been a reality and a fixture for goodness-knows-how-long!! I've sworn by it.

I've had three 2408s-- mk1, mk2, and mk3-- with PCI, PCIx, and PCIe as the years morphed from one to another. I still have my mk3, but I've added an SSL AlphaLInk with MADI card--- 64 inputs on one data path, 64 outputs on another data path. AFAIK, it's the only system that has independent paths of ins and outs. I will be adding an Apogee system as well because of client prefs.

Frodo,

Is it possible to get a quick review of the SSL alpalink / MADI cards and how it works with DP ?
How do you set up your gear for monitoring ? are you working ITB or OTB ? Any gotchas ?
Thinking about getting one...

/B

dcoscina · Post by **dcoscina** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:52 pm

Thanks for all of the responses. I'm totally torn. I do agree the Apogee Duet has a nice detailed sound but it just lacks IOs that I need and I frankly cannot afford the hike from $599 to $2000. My local store says the 828Mk3 and UltraLite Mk3 are very good as far as sound and drivers. I don't need a lot of inputs but do need more outputs than the Duet offers for surround mixing.

It looks like the 828 has FW800 ports in the Hybrid. Looks good.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:41 pm

dcoscina wrote:Thanks for all of the responses. I'm totally torn. I do agree the Apogee Duet has a nice detailed sound but it just lacks IOs that I need and I frankly cannot afford the hike from $599 to $2000. My local store says the 828Mk3 and UltraLite Mk3 are very good as far as sound and drivers. I don't need a lot of inputs but do need more outputs than the Duet offers for surround mixing.

It looks like the 828 has FW800 ports in the Hybrid. Looks good.

This is just a thought you might consider. Personally, I think MOTU's PCI boxes are better than their Firewire boxes. It's not the converters, but the other stuff. I've always considered my original 896 an "add on" box, if I run out of inputs elsewhere, and my mobile box. I can take it with me -- though if I were getting one now, I'd probably go for a more portable one like the Traveler.

I'm assuming that you're using a Mac Pro. If not, then never mind! So, based on my assumption, I think you'd be better off for the long haul with a PCIe box. The chances are about even that within 3 or 4 years we'll see Mac Pro's without ANY Firewire ports. Then you'll have to get a USB-3 to Firewire converter, and that possibly means endless driver upgrades and compatibility woes. There's no question that USB-3 is coming, and that it is going to render Firewire to the history pages along with CD-RW storage, floppy disks, Appletalk and Appleshare networks, serial interfaces, SCSI, ATA and even (eventually) DVD's. I made the list longer just to emphasize that even the technologies we are pretty certain are going to be around for a while eventually do succumb to progress.

So, get a PCI box, and in a year or two, get a portable USB-3 box. I'm calling Firewire a legacy technology starting right now. Having centered on PCIe, I suggest MOTU HD196, and if you wish to make it high-end, get a Black Lion mod on it.

You say you can't afford a lot, so consider getting it on eBay. If you do, be sure to get MOTU involved so you can transfer the registration to your name. Believe it or not, they will not let you buy an upgrade to the 424 card unless it's registered in your name. Having the box and its serial number are not sufficient. MOTU demands that the registration be transferred to you and signed by the original owner. (there have been four kinds of PCI cards associated with the 424 so far; it's safe to assume there could be more)

Whatever you do, think of the future. We're due some major upgrades in peripheral formats, protocols, speed, and ports. Lightwave (or whatever Apple calls their optical connector) is in limbo -- it could happen or not. USB-3.0 is a certainty, just a matter of time, and not much time at that. Firewire is long in the tooth. It had a great run, and I'm happy to have had it, but USB-3.0 will put it in the grave now.

When you go with 3rd parties other than MOTU, you're also looking at uncertainty. As long as DP is around, so will be the MOTU interfaces. Sometimes a little confidence is worth a lot of alleged benefits. Black Lion can make up for MOTU's shortcomings in component quality.

You may be perfectly happy with other brands. I'm not saying this out of brand loyalty. I've been through many, many cutting-edge technologies or brands that ended up in the warehouse way before I should have had to cut them loose. When I make plans for new hardware, I try to get something that will still be viable in 10 years. My 2408mkII is a case in point. It is now 10 years old. My MIDI Timepiece USB is also that old, and yet I can still use my previous MTP-AV with the original serial interface -- it networks directly with the MTP-AV USB.

Saving yourself from $2000 purchases five or ten years out can make a big difference on your budget, and it may justify even spending more now to save more later… if you can make the right choices.

I'm a little long in the tooth myself; I'm just sharing what I've learned after spending more money than I care to admit over the past 27 years on all things associated with Macs and Music.

Shooshie

PS: I've kept almost every receipt I've ever received on technology purchases. One of these days I'm going to make a spreadsheet just to see how many zeroes are in that total. It's shocking.

Killahurts · Post by **Killahurts** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:29 pm

RME HDSPe MADI card, to SSL Alphalink SX. When I had the Sony Console, I used the RME card into it, so when the console died, the logical choice was the SSL (got to keep the card). The converters on this are very nice. It doesn't have preamps, but I had my own boutique stuff anyway.

The RME card comes with Totalmix, a near zero latency software mixing and routing matrix, 64 X 64 X 64 channels. For me, it serves the same purpose as Cuemix for people that have MOTU hardware. Miss the console, but I have to admit, my new setup sounds really good.

dcoscina · Post by **dcoscina** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:56 pm

Shooshie wrote: This is just a thought you might consider. Personally, I think MOTU's PCI boxes are better than their Firewire boxes. It's not the converters, but the other stuff. I've always considered my original 896 an "add on" box, if I run out of inputs elsewhere, and my mobile box. I can take it with me -- though if I were getting one now, I'd probably go for a more portable one like the Traveler.

I'm assuming that you're using a Mac Pro. If not, then never mind! So, based on my assumption, I think you'd be better off for the long haul with a PCIe box. The chances are about even that within 3 or 4 years we'll see Mac Pro's without ANY Firewire ports. Then you'll have to get a USB-3 to Firewire converter, and that possibly means endless driver upgrades and compatibility woes. There's no question that USB-3 is coming, and that it is going to render Firewire to the history pages along with CD-RW storage, floppy disks, Appletalk and Appleshare networks, serial interfaces, SCSI, ATA and even (eventually) DVD's. I made the list longer just to emphasize that even the technologies we are pretty certain are going to be around for a while eventually do succumb to progress.

I had originally wanted to buy a 2408 Mk3 with 424 card for $1050 (less the trade in for my Apogee Duet). But I was told there wasn't a big if any difference in performance for running mostly VIs. It sounded a little thin to me but the people recommending USB or FW interfaces only have Macbook Pros or else iMacs and therefore don't have the ability to go PCI-e. You guys aren't biased like these music store types which is why I value your feedback more. II think I'll stick with my original plans which was to buy a 2408 Mk3.

Thanks Sooshie.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:18 pm

One other thing: must it have pre-amps? MOTU's PCI boxes do not have pre-amps. I have plenty of pre-amps, so that is not a consideration for me except when using my Powerbook and recording remotely.

dcoscina · Post by **dcoscina** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:01 am

Not necessarily, I have an Art Tube pre-amp that delivers a very warm sound.

dcoscina · Post by **dcoscina** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:45 pm

For now I think I'm gonna stick with the Duet. I'll either look at an Ensemble or else a Symphony system when the film project in working on pays me. Reading various reviews on the web re: MOTUs hardware issues has me kinda worried.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:08 pm

If any reviews in particular stand out, I'd like to read them. I've been curious as to the state of MOTU's hardware these days. I have a feeling that the HD192 is still what it once was, but the others may have changed a lot. Just a feeling, not backed by facts so much as the general tone of people's comments over the past few years. Nevertheless, there are always people who seem not to have those issues, or else they just don't mind them. But I don't know what issues we're talking about at the moment, so if you can remember any informative reviews, that might be some good reading for all of us.

Shooshie

dcoscina · Post by **dcoscina** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:46 pm

I looked at reviews on sweetwater and harmony central. Also Musicians Friend. Compared to the Apogee Duet, no MOTU hardware in the same range fared nearly as well. Even on this thread. I thought perhaps wrongly that a PCIe card would give me lower latency for VIs than a fw device but it seems only the case for audio inputs rather than VI outputs.

The Duet definitely has a great dynamic range and I'll probably end up going for an Ensemble down the line or else a Symphony system if I get some better paying music gigs.

MOTUnation.com