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I was given some information on gut substitutes a few months back in an educational after-concert discussion with the string bass player for the Philharmonia Baroque.

I never got around to doing the Google search, but I know she said there's this guy in Oregon and I think the brand name was Lemur.

She was playing a 350 year old instrument, which has a sharper arc to it than modern string basses, and a baroque bow. I really loved the warmth of her tone and how much more distinct the fundamental was. She said you can find similar bows made in China now for $200 to $300 and that they really work well in the studio if bowing is a requirement.

Although this is about recording technique, a few hints on playing technique can contribute to recording, so here's a bit more of what she recommended with regards to more expressive bowing:

1. Use a smaller bow, more arced but not as tall end-to-end
2. Balast the weight, and don't emphasize detache as much
3. Press or pull individual hairs w/ thumb to change pressure/distance

The baroque bow, and its traditional playing technique, in conjunction with gut or gut-like strings, produces a silkier and sweeter tone than the modern bow. And it works well for jazz as well!

Lemur Music is a bass shop in San Juan Capistrano, CA. They used to be in Kansas City, then Arizona. Before the internet, I used to get their catalog.
http://www.lemurmusic.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another big online source is Upton Bass in MA.
http://www.uptonbass.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They have a set of all-gut strings for $215 that I intend to try on my carved 4-string:
http://www.uptonbass.com/Clef-Gut-Uprig ... s-Strings/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The idea that one needs a baroque bow to play gut is nonsense. Bassists have been using modern bows on gut strings for nearly 200 years.

I have never had problems playing gut with a soft enough rosin and a German bow. Bottisini was using a French bow 175 years ago. Back then, gut was the only choice.

The old synthetic substitutes (Perlon etc) never sounded good to me. Some of the new synthetics hold promise.

I used LaBella gut for years but never really liked the wound strings. I am hoping that my arm will gain enough movement to try those Clef strings.

Mike,

Thanks for the links.

I didn't mean to imply that baroque bows are required for good gut string action -- just than non-gut strings (which is what I have) can really hinder the ability to get good results.

The baroque bow comments were meant to be decoupled from the string material discussion.

I found the sound of the baroque bow particularly pleasing, and we did some jazz on it after the concert and were pleased with the results.

As for modern bows, I'm not sure if there is a prevalence towards German or French bows amongst the jazz crowd. I went for the "underhand" German style bow, thinking it would be easier to control for the sort of bowing that pops up sometimes in jazz (e.g. the intro to "Spain"). here's an interesting bow discussion:

http://www.gollihurmusic.com/faq/14-BOW ... STYLE.html

A good argument in favour of the French bow is that the skill would hopefully transfer easily to other members of the violin family.

From a recording point of view, I doubt there would be any different considerations when miking someone with either type of bow.

I'm using the Thomastik-Infeld Spirocore strings (steel core), but it looks like I might benefit from trying their jazz-oriented rope-core Superflexible line next time:

http://www.lemurmusic.com/Thomastik-Dou ... rtments/4/

I've been extremely happy with Thomastik-Infeld's rope-core Classic series on my nylon guitar, and prefer them to anything else I've tried on classical guitars in the past.

It's interesting to see that different strings (and even tunings!) are recommended for arco vs. pizz vs. solo etc.:

http://www.lemurmusic.com/BASS--STRINGS/departments/2/

It just goes to show that I know even less than I thought I did about orchestral bass.

Unlike different bows, however, I do feel that the type of string can affect miking choices quite a bit, as different strings project differently.

Superflexible is a much darker string and less flexible than the Spiricore. Currently, my carved four string has Superflexibles and my Kay 5 string has Spirocores except for the low B which is a Superflexible.

It is my four that will get a set of gut again if therapy allows my arm to move on the neck again.

>A good argument in favour of the French bow is that the skill would hopefully transfer easily to other members of the violin family.<

Not really, IMO. I played bass with a German bow because it was much less tiring on my right arm and hand than a French bow. I have a few of each. I never had a problem playing cello, violin or viola with their respective bows as the arm position is completely different than a bass.

With a cello, you lean the instrument back and the bow lies on top of the strings - you let gravity do a lot of the work. With a bass, you have to fight gravity and hold the bow up so that it is parallel to the ground. I find that my hand and arm can only take so much of that w/ the French bow; a German bow can let me play an entire performance of Siegfried or a complete Messiah without fatigue (done both).

I know a number of players who have converted from French to German over the years including one who used to give me a bad time - I loaned him my 4 when his bass was in the shop for a long time and he decided to try out the other bow in the bag. I have never met player who started German and later preferred the French - oh, there must be a few out there but I don't know any.

I got timed out the first time around, so I'll just preface this with an apology for it being a cut/paste of the general message I am sending out about the upright bass.

I had concluded a while back that no miking technique was ever going to get me the sound that I'm looking for, from a scaled-down semi-acoustic upright, and so the time came to address the best path forward with a "regular" upright.

This posting skips the context of the past eight weeks or so of research, trial and error, and postings done elsewhere. I just wanted to let people know that I am now on a path of being able to perform USEFUL experiments with miking upright bass!

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Well, I did it -- I was going to wait until a Boston visit to go to the Upton Bass showroom on Boyslton St. as they are renowned nationwide (even though founded as recently as 1999) for their custom Upton and Chinese-made Shen basses (ranging from around $1700 to $3500 on average), but I decided to give Best Music in Oakland a call today, where I bought my alto saxophone, as they are the main orchestral instrument store for the San Francisco Symphony, pro jazz players, and many other SF Bay Area performing groups.

They told me about three affordable basses in the store, so I decided on the spur of the moment to walk my Eminence semi-acoustic upright bass to a BART station headed for Oakland and put it on consignment at Best Music, then try the three regular basses that they have in stock.

My decision was made from the minute I picked up the first one, so I signed the paperwork to release my scaled-down bass and then spent the next three hours trying to decide which of the three full-scale (actually 3/4 scale, but these days even the orchestral players use 3/4 scale uprights), to buy. I ended up with the mid-priced one, which was only $750 vs. the $3700 I paid for the Eminence in 1997 (I'm selling it for $3000 negotiable, but I kind of had to make a guess at a reasonable price as they don't show up on eBay etc.).

I expect the Eminence will sell quickly as it is unique and many people need a travel bass. Also many students need a quiet instrument for practice. Much better than putting it on Craigslist! When I sold my 1930's Conn soprano saxophone there many years ago, it sold within a week!

So, back to the fully acoustic full-body upright basses, it was such a joy to play all of them, and to hear such richness of tone as well as knowing they will take well to arco playing and not just pizzicato. The one I bought is Chinese made -- many of the best intermediate level orchestral instruments are coming out of China these days. I will have some setup work done on it next week, and then they will deliver it for free, which is awesome since it doesn't fit my car.

My next car will of course have to fit an upright bass. We tried at another store recently and it's a no-go due to clearance. I think I'm stuck getting a hatcback or squareback next time around. It's so hard to find ones with good gas mileage, and I refuse to buy a car that gets less than the 40 mpg that my 20 year old car gets. The Prius is about the only one though, and that shocks me to no end. I'm holding out on a new car mostly out of a matter of principle.

So, although it's a shame I won't be able to bring this acoustic upright bass to jazz rehearsals/jams or gigs anytime soon, at least I will be able to practice it every day and use it for home recording projects, vs. resorting to sample libraries of the Vienna Philharmonic triggered from a keyboard. I had to make that choice due to better timbre, even though the phrasing will never be as musical as when I play a real bass. Almost everything I write uses upright bass!

You play an Eminence semi-acoustic?

Were you at Old Princeton Landing last Saturday?

Nope -- I guess that was my doppleganger.

Although I've parted with mine, it's good to know the Eminence has caught on. Gary does great work, and given the limitations of a bass that is scaled down like this, he really does fill a niche and there's top workmanship involved, with a great neck that is properly set up.