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Shooshie's approach definitely leaves more time for reading the DP manual.

And I mean the hard copy, not the PDF.

As my earlier response of frustration and being stymied once again may have indicated, I am now ruling out the Mac Mini Server as an option, and due to issues with installing DP and other software, apparently ANY Mac that replaces its optical drive with a second internal drive.

Horses for courses, is probably the best policy. Anything else is prone to difficulties as it is essentially a Frankenmac at that point, brittle in its overall architecture and upgradability.

Nevertheless, macrumors thinks new iMacs are a couple of weeks away due to some updates in video drivers that happened even after the updates that were already made for the new Mac Mini a few weeks back.

If the iMac also goes through a radical change that makes it easy (finally) to replace the hard drive with an SSD, or add a second drive, patience may pay off. I have to wait about two weeks (maybe slightly less) to place my Mac order anyway, and realistically will be too busy to set a new one up for three weeks anyway so may as well wait a tiny bit longer.

I think the question of installing SL 10.6.4 in place of SL Server 10.6.3 is fraught with too many perils, and in spite of simplistic answers on Wiki and at macosxaudio.com indicating that OS X Server includes Core Audio support, it seems clear that the Mac Mini Server is not usable for audio without replacing OS X Server with vanilla OS X.

The second question of installing software such as DP from an external USB drive vs. from an internal optical drive that is identified by the computer as essentially coupled to its IP, is a security issue that may not affect that many programs and may be able to be worked around by creating a DMG file, as that is how we get most of our updates and even first installs of most software today anyway.

In other words, as long as there is a doable workaround for the initial DP install on a new machine, this case may come up quite rarely and not be a showstopper. In that case, it is OK to buy a computer whose optical bay has been swapped for a second internal drive.

This opens up the possibility of a custom job, on our own or via that vendor in Oregon (my notes are at home) that offers nice configurations of iMacs, Mac Minis, and MB's/MBP's that are more suited to professional work.

One always has to balance the cost vs. a used MacPro, but as the 2009 models were disappointing, and as Macs retain such a huge percentage of their value, it is difficult to find a good bang for buck ratio on a used Mac (especially if paying 9-12% California sales tax). The 2008 models are probably a better buy all around, but still around $2000 minimum the last time I checked.

Doing a little research...

That new iMac 27" with the i7 processor is, essentially, the same horsepower and half the price of the current Mac Pro Quad with a new Apple monitor - not even available in 27" yet. It also uses less power.

Of course, compared to my G5 heat pump, anything has got to be better. It's embarrassing to have to run the AC on a moderate day to keep my office/studio cool.

Although I like the idea of waiting for the hex-core MPs, money is a bit tight. The new Mac Mini looks good but I don't know. I have never gone in for virtual instruments - just played them all myself. I know that doesn't use that much overhead but, since my stroke, that is not my option anymore. I need to do everything one-handed and re-think my approach to computing/recording and the whole deal.

Oh my...

Mike, really sorry to hear about the stroke and its aftermath.

Would something like an iPad in conjunction with another computer, give you more mobility and dexterity, given some of the DAW-like control overlays that are being produced for the iPad?

I know this is a bit OT at this point. I think there's a dedicated ipad discussion in one of the other forums. Of course it hurts your budget, but maybe an iPad plus a Mini would be cheaper than some other options.

Not sure if the iPad's display can be used as output from a standard Mac or not. I haven't really looked into all the ways it can integrate into a setup.

> due to issues with installing DP and other software, apparently ANY Mac that replaces its optical drive with a second internal drive.<

I have never had problems using an external optical drive in those situations. Anyone using a MacBook Air would be having such problems and, frankly, they don't. It's a "non-issue".

If you are using a PPC, that external optical must be Firewire. Intel based Macs can use USB-2 or Firewire drives.

The Apple recommended drive is a USB bus powered $99 add-on from the Apple store. OWC has better drives for $89 up (I wouldn't get less than one that can write DVD+DL). Other compatible drives start at $59.

Shooshie wrote:Well, you all just go out and get your fancy Mac MIni's. I don't need such tricks to make my music sound great. Just give me a microphone and a floppy drive. Direct-to-disk.

Wimp. I'm singing naked under a tree right now, in the rain. I slap my body for accompaniment. It hurts a bit, but dammit, its honest.

I will want an iPad as soon as it has decent notation software.

Controllers aren't really the issue for me. It is whether the Mac Mini has the horsepower I need if I get into virtual instruments. If not, I am certain the i7 iMac will do the job - a little over $2,000 from the EDU store with AppleCare and sales tax (wife is a teacher, daughters are students and I live in the silicon valley where daughter's bf works at Apple).

Not that I couldn't use a hex-core MP when it comes out. But my kid is going to school in Denmark next year and that is putting a serious strain on Dad's "new Mac" budget. My G5 is getting too creaky, however - I need to do something soon.

BKK-OZ wrote:

Shooshie wrote:Well, you all just go out and get your fancy Mac MIni's. I don't need such tricks to make my music sound great. Just give me a microphone and a floppy drive. Direct-to-disk.

Wimp. I'm singing naked under a tree right now, in the rain. I slap my body for accompaniment. It hurts a bit, but dammit, its honest.

Proud to be called a wimp these days.

Seriously, my wife wanted to put me back in hospital after some dental work on Friday. It took quite a bit to convince her that I was talking funny because my tongue was swollen and I was not having a relapse of my stroke.

Floppy drive? Hell. I learned my trade cutting wax on old Cadillac flywheels at the knee of Les Paul...

Ok, not really but my dad did work at AMPEX in the '60s - '70s. I have more great analog gear in my basement that will never see the light of day again...

Anywaze, back OT for a minute...

newrigel wrote:Look HERE and under "Key Technologies"... there's no mention of Core Audio.
But HERE there is mention of Core Audio under "Key Technologies".
There's framework for QT but it's more for streaming than executing the code locally on the machine itself. Nothing stops you from running OSXSL though.

Thanx for that NR, I do actually have Toast lying around somewhere, so I suppose I could try it, but it seems like I would be venturing further and further into unsupported territory here. Sure, I might get it to work, but would it be really worth it? It is a pity, I agree with you in your earlier post, a mini server would be a pretty good little machine, but Apple clearly don't want you to run SL client on it, so I guess I'll have to re-think my plans.

Oh well.

BKK-OZ wrote:Anywaze, back OT for a minute...

newrigel wrote:Look HERE and under "Key Technologies"... there's no mention of Core Audio.
But HERE there is mention of Core Audio under "Key Technologies".
There's framework for QT but it's more for streaming than executing the code locally on the machine itself. Nothing stops you from running OSXSL though.

Thanx for that NR, I do actually have Toast lying around somewhere, so I suppose I could try it, but it seems like I would be venturing further and further into unsupported territory here. Sure, I might get it to work, but would it be really worth it? It is a pity, I agree with you in your earlier post, a mini server would be a pretty good little machine, but Apple clearly don't want you to run SL client on it, so I guess I'll have to re-think my plans.

Oh well.

If your just wanting something to hold you over till MP... then get the SL version. You can get one with the 2.66 Ghz processor. Once you get it set up, put a velociraptor HD or an SSD in there... the optical is SATA. then... CCC that System HD to an external read only disk image!

newrigel wrote:Once you get it set up, put a velociraptor HD or an SSD in there... the optical is SATA. then... CCC that System HD to an external read only disk image!

Not a bad idea, thanx. I will look into what it will cost/take to swap out the optical drive for a faster HD (or an SSD). I don't get the last bit though - if I swapped out the optical drive, I could use whatever I put in its place to run sample libraries/audio, etc. which should be fine, then I could use the 5400rpm drive that came with the mini for my system stuff, inc. applications - surely that would be fast enough for that purpose? Or are you saying that even for system stuff (OS & apps) that the 5400rpm drive would be too slow?

Thanx again for the advice.

BKK-OZ wrote:

newrigel wrote:Once you get it set up, put a velociraptor HD or an SSD in there... the optical is SATA. then... CCC that System HD to an external read only disk image!

Not a bad idea, thanx. I will look into what it will cost/take to swap out the optical drive for a faster HD (or an SSD). I don't get the last bit though - if I swapped out the optical drive, I could use whatever I put in its place to run sample libraries/audio, etc. which should be fine, then I could use the 5400rpm drive that came with the mini for my system stuff, inc. applications - surely that would be fast enough for that purpose? Or are you saying that even for system stuff (OS & apps) that the 5400rpm drive would be too slow?

Thanx again for the advice.

5400 drives are workable... but I have updated many many laptops with SSD's and the users weren't inhibited in their workflows at all. When using the 5400, spinning beach balls constantly... may be something to consider with an audio machine.

Regarding the Core Audio issue, the server edition has the same audio ins/outs. To my knowledge, they can't function without CoreAudio. I think it's a non-issue overlooked by the tech writers.

From the Apple tech specs:

Audio

Audio line in minijack (digital/analog)
Audio line out/headphone minijack (digital/analog)
HDMI port supports multichannel audio output
Support for Apple iPhone headset with microphone

mikehalloran wrote:Regarding the Core Audio issue, the server edition has the same audio ins/outs. To my knowledge, they can't function without CoreAudio. I think it's a non-issue overlooked by the tech writers.

From the Apple tech specs:

Audio

Audio line in minijack (digital/analog)
Audio line out/headphone minijack (digital/analog)
HDMI port supports multichannel audio output
Support for Apple iPhone headset with microphone

CoreAudio is a fundamental part of Mac OS X and is present in the Server OS as well. It cannot be removed from the OS.

Mac OS X Server is identical to the client OS, with the addition of some additional management tools and frameworks.

Here is a diagram of the OS' structure. http://developer.apple.com/macosx/architecture/

That said, I would not run the Server OS for a DAW as it is not tested and supported by MOTU and that is what is most important.

If you have an existing intel machine you can install the client OS easily by putting it into target disk mode, using disk utility to break any existing RAID (if there is one), and pointing the installer at a drive.

KEVORKIAN wrote:

mikehalloran wrote:Regarding the Core Audio issue, the server edition has the same audio ins/outs. To my knowledge, they can't function without CoreAudio. I think it's a non-issue overlooked by the tech writers.

From the Apple tech specs:

Audio

Audio line in minijack (digital/analog)
Audio line out/headphone minijack (digital/analog)
HDMI port supports multichannel audio output
Support for Apple iPhone headset with microphone

CoreAudio is a fundamental part of Mac OS X and is present in the Server OS as well. It cannot be removed from the OS.

Mac OS X Server is identical to the client OS, with the addition of some additional management tools and frameworks.

Here is a diagram of the OS' structure. http://developer.apple.com/macosx/architecture/

That said, I would not run the Server OS for a DAW as it is not tested and supported by MOTU and that is what is most important.

If you have an existing intel machine you can install the client OS easily by putting it into target disk mode, using disk utility to break any existing RAID (if there is one), and pointing the installer at a drive.

XServes don't have any audio I/O's. So the server software doesn't support core audio from what I understand. Retail osx will install on anything. Included restore disks have hardware specific criteria to meet before allowing an install. You can alter some preflight info to fool the install on different boxes.